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Among the Lizard People: Silent Connections at the Reptile Expo

34 points by samclemens 10y ago

sneak 10y ago
Surprised that this wasn't about the RNC.
VLM 10y ago
"It’s a strange thing to keep a creature you have no hope of developing a relationship with." I keep tropical fish because I find it super relaxing to watch them flit around. We're not bros or buddies. My grandparents put out feeder and nectar for hummingbirds because hummingbirds are totally awesome, not because they enjoyed a deep personal relationship with those little sugar fiends. Its a strange theme for a reptile show story in that most stories are a variation on pointing out the unusually high percentage of white trash followed by the usual preaching to the choir social signalling about how awesome we are because we aren't them. I also noted the lack of sense of wonder or beauty. Perhaps another symptom of excessive projection about human relationships is refusal to admit some animals are part of our lives for shallow reasons because of fear of judgment about the depth of human relationships. Maybe something to do with age; I'm confident enough in my long marriage to buy a tropical fish based solely on how it looks (aside from blindingly obvious higher priority engineering constraints like compatibility and biochemistry, within those constraints, pick something based on looks) Or the opposite, Mexican Mole Lizard totally not happening any time soon.
hashkb 10y ago
> because the relationship is all projection Yup. I'm convinced my cat is on my lap for reasons other than "This thing feeds me and pets me" too. But at least it comes and sits on my lap, even if it's conning me. And... I'm not projecting that, either.
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  You're warm, you feed it, you groom it, and let it groom you. You presumably never hurt it, even when it's vulnerable. That's trust. I'm not sure that human love is so much more than that, run through a metacognitive filter.
Aelinsaar 10y ago
There are a LOT of people who talk about their lizard "loving" them, and for them this is the article. My cousin though, has had reptiles since she was a little girl, and not because she thought she was going to bond with them. Instead, she likes lizards. She likes to watch them, and interact with them, and find them fascinating. Personally, I find them boring, but I get it. There are some pigeons that routines stop by my living room window and spend hours there, and occasionally I watch them. Over time, I've learned to recognize a lot of their behavioral "routines", the constant maintenance of their personal space, grooming, cooing, fighting, mating. I've seen their sleek young pigeons come, and grow into adult birds. They're not terribly complicated really, but they're interesting. They do have relationships with each other that express themselves in mutual grooming, or fighting, or in the case of mates a total exception to the "personal space" rule. Nothing about my affection for them comes from a sense of connection, or the possibility of connection. They are frankly disinterested in anything other than other pigeons (friend, foe, mate, shelter), and food; everything else is something to be wary of of. I just enjoy seeing them go about their lives, often making pleasant noises, and just being alive and different.
michaelbuckbee 10y ago
There's a quote from the TV show Archer that I think reveals an aspect of the reptilian appeal that was missing in the article: "Gee, I don't know, Cyril. Maybe deep down I'm afraid of any apex predator that lived through the K-T extinction. Physically unchanged for a hundred million years, because it's the perfect killing machine. A half ton of cold-blooded fury, the bite force of 20,000 Newtons, and stomach acid so strong it can dissolve bones and hoofs." The sense of fear that Archer has is also expressed in our pop cultural fascination with all things Dinosaur (Jurassic World/Park, etc.). To be able to keep a miniature dinosaur as a pet seems like a great thing.
Kiro 10y ago
> At its most serene, a lizard won’t interact with you any differently than it would a branch. Sure but it's still interacting. I've had tortoises and lizards for a long time and I really like interacting with them. See them react to different things, whether it be me or a branch.
- 67726e 10y ago
  Maybe it depends on the lizard, if you raised it, or some other factor but I don't feel that's quite accurate. I dated a girl who had lizards all her life and to hear her tell it, her bearded dragons grew quite fond of her. One had surgery to remove a tumor and when she saw him after surgery he flat out fought the vet to come running to her, despite being bandaged and still semi-sedated. I know when I came home from work, one of the dragons we had would clamber off his perch and claw at the glass, presumably for attention. I'm sure most of the time they would snuggle for the body heat, but those bearded dragons showed some awareness that I'm more than a log.
  - Kiro 10y ago
    Your story makes me want to get a bearded dragon again. :) The one I had was really really old (we were his retirement home) so could have been that.
    - 67726e 10y ago
      I had a pair of hatchlings with my ex. I didn't quite get to see them to full maturity, but just about. They're almost like the puppies of the lizard world, especially if you get them young. The first one we had, his mate died about a year on. He went from being a fairly social critter to burrowing under his pool most of the time until we got him a new mate. I try not to anthropomorphize but I swear he cheered up and became his old self because of his new friend. I know anecdote != data but damn if I'm not gonna believe those things had something more to them than "hey, you're just a stick" If you want a cool pet that's less effort than a dog, bearded dragons are a great option. Just make sure to be careful handling them when they're small. Sneaky little things.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
walrus01 10y ago
If I were a Jeff bezos level gazillionaire I would probably sponsor a high budget giant Galapagos land tortoise exhibit with its own full time staff. What else is so huge, serene, slow moving and lives for 200 years?

34 points by samclemens 10y ago

sneak 10y ago

Surprised that this wasn't about the RNC.

VLM 10y ago

"It’s a strange thing to keep a creature you have no hope of developing a relationship with." I keep tropical fish because I find it super relaxing to watch them flit around. We're not bros or buddies. My grandparents put out feeder and nectar for hummingbirds because hummingbirds are totally awesome, not because they enjoyed a deep personal relationship with those little sugar fiends. Its a strange theme for a reptile show story in that most stories are a variation on pointing out the unusually high percentage of white trash followed by the usual preaching to the choir social signalling about how awesome we are because we aren't them. I also noted the lack of sense of wonder or beauty. Perhaps another symptom of excessive projection about human relationships is refusal to admit some animals are part of our lives for shallow reasons because of fear of judgment about the depth of human relationships. Maybe something to do with age; I'm confident enough in my long marriage to buy a tropical fish based solely on how it looks (aside from blindingly obvious higher priority engineering constraints like compatibility and biochemistry, within those constraints, pick something based on looks) Or the opposite, Mexican Mole Lizard totally not happening any time soon.

hashkb 10y ago

> because the relationship is all projection Yup. I'm convinced my cat is on my lap for reasons other than "This thing feeds me and pets me" too. But at least it comes and sits on my lap, even if it's conning me. And... I'm not projecting that, either.

Aelinsaar 10y ago
You're warm, you feed it, you groom it, and let it groom you. You presumably never hurt it, even when it's vulnerable. That's trust. I'm not sure that human love is so much more than that, run through a metacognitive filter.

Aelinsaar 10y ago

There are a LOT of people who talk about their lizard "loving" them, and for them this is the article. My cousin though, has had reptiles since she was a little girl, and not because she thought she was going to bond with them. Instead, she likes lizards. She likes to watch them, and interact with them, and find them fascinating. Personally, I find them boring, but I get it. There are some pigeons that routines stop by my living room window and spend hours there, and occasionally I watch them. Over time, I've learned to recognize a lot of their behavioral "routines", the constant maintenance of their personal space, grooming, cooing, fighting, mating. I've seen their sleek young pigeons come, and grow into adult birds. They're not terribly complicated really, but they're interesting. They do have relationships with each other that express themselves in mutual grooming, or fighting, or in the case of mates a total exception to the "personal space" rule. Nothing about my affection for them comes from a sense of connection, or the possibility of connection. They are frankly disinterested in anything other than other pigeons (friend, foe, mate, shelter), and food; everything else is something to be wary of of. I just enjoy seeing them go about their lives, often making pleasant noises, and just being alive and different.

michaelbuckbee 10y ago

There's a quote from the TV show Archer that I think reveals an aspect of the reptilian appeal that was missing in the article: "Gee, I don't know, Cyril. Maybe deep down I'm afraid of any apex predator that lived through the K-T extinction. Physically unchanged for a hundred million years, because it's the perfect killing machine. A half ton of cold-blooded fury, the bite force of 20,000 Newtons, and stomach acid so strong it can dissolve bones and hoofs." The sense of fear that Archer has is also expressed in our pop cultural fascination with all things Dinosaur (Jurassic World/Park, etc.). To be able to keep a miniature dinosaur as a pet seems like a great thing.

Kiro 10y ago

> At its most serene, a lizard won’t interact with you any differently than it would a branch. Sure but it's still interacting. I've had tortoises and lizards for a long time and I really like interacting with them. See them react to different things, whether it be me or a branch.

67726e 10y ago
Maybe it depends on the lizard, if you raised it, or some other factor but I don't feel that's quite accurate. I dated a girl who had lizards all her life and to hear her tell it, her bearded dragons grew quite fond of her. One had surgery to remove a tumor and when she saw him after surgery he flat out fought the vet to come running to her, despite being bandaged and still semi-sedated. I know when I came home from work, one of the dragons we had would clamber off his perch and claw at the glass, presumably for attention. I'm sure most of the time they would snuggle for the body heat, but those bearded dragons showed some awareness that I'm more than a log.
- Kiro 10y ago
  Your story makes me want to get a bearded dragon again. :) The one I had was really really old (we were his retirement home) so could have been that.
  - 67726e 10y ago
    I had a pair of hatchlings with my ex. I didn't quite get to see them to full maturity, but just about. They're almost like the puppies of the lizard world, especially if you get them young. The first one we had, his mate died about a year on. He went from being a fairly social critter to burrowing under his pool most of the time until we got him a new mate. I try not to anthropomorphize but I swear he cheered up and became his old self because of his new friend. I know anecdote != data but damn if I'm not gonna believe those things had something more to them than "hey, you're just a stick" If you want a cool pet that's less effort than a dog, bearded dragons are a great option. Just make sure to be careful handling them when they're small. Sneaky little things.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

walrus01 10y ago

If I were a Jeff bezos level gazillionaire I would probably sponsor a high budget giant Galapagos land tortoise exhibit with its own full time staff. What else is so huge, serene, slow moving and lives for 200 years?