6 ms·

I have had the unusual pleasure of being amongst two distinct groups of people over the last few months. Firstly, a group of businessowners. 'local' business

I have had the unusual pleasure of being amongst two distinct groups of people over the last few months. Firstly, a group of businessowners. 'local' businesses though most have strong ties to the local port or northern regions of France. Pre-brexit they were mostly close mouthed on the issue, though personal conversations indicated a lean to leave. Post brexit they are generally quite happy; their foreign affairs are relatively easy to keep in order and they have just gained leverage on the local stage. The other group is composed of PhD students and their professors. I'm a casual aquaintance to these people, mainly on the student end, and have dropped in for lunch a few times (and after work pints). These guys are all anti brexit. I know from the way they make up stories about why people voted out and then insult them - its quite unpleasant. From what I gather very little of their funding comes from the EU, but I'm not familliar enough with their funding system to judge them on it. It seems we have a shit ton of echo chambers in this country.

andy_ppp 10y ago
>>> It seems we have a shit ton of echo chambers in this country. Good to see your comprehensive survey supported your view :-D
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  Hey! Don't criticise my methods! It's statistical I tell you, statistical! In a similar vein I had a friend try to tell me that a 4% difference represented a landslide.
nothrabannosir 10y ago
> their foreign affairs are relatively easy to keep in order and they have just gained leverage on the local stage. Just about this part: nothing has actually changed relatively significantly at all, yet. Article 50 has not even been triggered. The UK first has to notify the EU of intent to leave, then they have to actually leave, then the effects will slowly start trickling in (whatever they are), and in the mean time so many confounding factors will be mixed in that we will probably never find out what came whence. > It seems we have a shit ton of echo chambers in this country. Is that anything new? Humans everywhere always. And?
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  I answered this point in another comment but to be more direct - they are happy that the negative effects will be minimal and have made moves to negate them via open conversations to their partners. These aren't huge businesses, they have <100 employees each and they know all their foreign partners personally.
gakada 10y ago
> I know from the way they make up stories about why people voted out and then insult them - its quite unpleasant You dismiss the possibility that they are right. Many people do support Brexit for wholly racist reasons (e.g. my father who wants to 'get the poles out').
- tomp 10y ago
  That's not racism. Xenophobia, maybe, but obviously not racism.
  - saalweachter 10y ago
    Why is it obviously not racism?
    - mhenr18 10y ago
      Suppose you're of the view that a mass influx of people into your country that are willing to work for less than the locals are will do harm to the economy. If one country's economy is weaker than yours and is a source of immigration from people seeking greater opportunity (and who'll do anything to get it, including undercutting locals), is it racist to want to stop immigration from that country? It's definitely protectionist and perhaps xenophobic but I don't think it's racist. (There is a clear distinction between xenophobia and racism - xenophobia is purely about an unjustified dislike for those from other countries while racism is an unjustified dislike for those who look different to you)
    - tomp 10y ago
      Because Polish and British people are of the same race (white/Caucasian).
      - foldr 10y ago
        There are no racial requirements on being British.
      - saalweachter 10y ago
tjallingt 10y ago
I found this online: https://royalsociety.org/~/media/policy/projects/eu-uk-funding/uk-membership-of-eu.pdf https://royalsociety.org/~/media/policy/projects/eu-uk-fundi... Seemingly this is a pretty unbiased source (but who knows nowadays). In that document it states that most of EU's research funding for the UK ends up going to higher education, and it accounts for 9.7% of their total budget. This doesn't sound like much but it's a considerable amount of money and it isn't spread equally over all areas of research. Of course there is also pan-European research in/from the UK which will be hit by far the hardest (and one could argue is among some of the more important research). So depending on their area of research your PhD student/professor connections might have a good reason to be upset. Of course it is bad for anyone to take out their feelings on other people by making up stories/insulting them. But then again I question what your own motives are in posting this comment online. Especially considering that there are plenty of people who seem to have the opposite experience. With your last sentence i wholeheartedly agree (as sad as it makes me). These days it seems that most people aren't even aware that they place themselves in a position where no one disagrees with them (see Facebook).
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  My motivations are mainly a frustration over the lack of useful discussion and the propensity of people to lock themselves into certain discussional tropes. I'm also massively conflicted over the kinds of people I want to br working amongst; whilst Academics tend towards the childish the business class tends towards the immoral. I'm actually surprised that its as low as 9.7%, though of course that is direct funding and won't account for losses from businesses and who move (large banks bankroll the local Uni) or reduce spending. What is notable in the funding is a decidedly different attitude to dealing with the problem, though this may simply be that researchers can't do much to affect funding wheras business iwners can. As for echo chambers specifically - it can be heart-wrenching to be amongst several groups. The previous Scottish referendum caused significant damage to my family relationships, and the brexit is doing the same to my friends. There are few people willing to consider they don't and can't know all the facts.
Angostura 10y ago
> Post brexit they are generally quite happy They're not post-Brexit. Currently the will be reaping the benefits of the low pound for exports, plus still have access to the European market, plus still be able to employ nice cheap Eastern European labour if they so wish. Let's wait until they are actually post-Brexit, shall we?
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  No, we are all aware of that. What I intended to convey was that they are not worried. They have talked to their partners made a bunch of pre arrangements, and essentially decided that all is, and will be, well.

andy_ppp 10y ago

>>> It seems we have a shit ton of echo chambers in this country. Good to see your comprehensive survey supported your view :-D

Normal_gaussian 10y ago
Hey! Don't criticise my methods! It's statistical I tell you, statistical! In a similar vein I had a friend try to tell me that a 4% difference represented a landslide.

nothrabannosir 10y ago

> their foreign affairs are relatively easy to keep in order and they have just gained leverage on the local stage. Just about this part: nothing has actually changed relatively significantly at all, yet. Article 50 has not even been triggered. The UK first has to notify the EU of intent to leave, then they have to actually leave, then the effects will slowly start trickling in (whatever they are), and in the mean time so many confounding factors will be mixed in that we will probably never find out what came whence. > It seems we have a shit ton of echo chambers in this country. Is that anything new? Humans everywhere always. And?

Normal_gaussian 10y ago
I answered this point in another comment but to be more direct - they are happy that the negative effects will be minimal and have made moves to negate them via open conversations to their partners. These aren't huge businesses, they have <100 employees each and they know all their foreign partners personally.

gakada 10y ago

> I know from the way they make up stories about why people voted out and then insult them - its quite unpleasant You dismiss the possibility that they are right. Many people do support Brexit for wholly racist reasons (e.g. my father who wants to 'get the poles out').

tomp 10y ago
That's not racism. Xenophobia, maybe, but obviously not racism.
- saalweachter 10y ago
  Why is it obviously not racism?
  - mhenr18 10y ago
    Suppose you're of the view that a mass influx of people into your country that are willing to work for less than the locals are will do harm to the economy. If one country's economy is weaker than yours and is a source of immigration from people seeking greater opportunity (and who'll do anything to get it, including undercutting locals), is it racist to want to stop immigration from that country? It's definitely protectionist and perhaps xenophobic but I don't think it's racist. (There is a clear distinction between xenophobia and racism - xenophobia is purely about an unjustified dislike for those from other countries while racism is an unjustified dislike for those who look different to you)
  - tomp 10y ago
    Because Polish and British people are of the same race (white/Caucasian).
    - foldr 10y ago
      There are no racial requirements on being British.
    - saalweachter 10y ago

tjallingt 10y ago

I found this online: https://royalsociety.org/~/media/policy/projects/eu-uk-funding/uk-membership-of-eu.pdf https://royalsociety.org/~/media/policy/projects/eu-uk-fundi... Seemingly this is a pretty unbiased source (but who knows nowadays). In that document it states that most of EU's research funding for the UK ends up going to higher education, and it accounts for 9.7% of their total budget. This doesn't sound like much but it's a considerable amount of money and it isn't spread equally over all areas of research. Of course there is also pan-European research in/from the UK which will be hit by far the hardest (and one could argue is among some of the more important research). So depending on their area of research your PhD student/professor connections might have a good reason to be upset. Of course it is bad for anyone to take out their feelings on other people by making up stories/insulting them. But then again I question what your own motives are in posting this comment online. Especially considering that there are plenty of people who seem to have the opposite experience. With your last sentence i wholeheartedly agree (as sad as it makes me). These days it seems that most people aren't even aware that they place themselves in a position where no one disagrees with them (see Facebook).

Normal_gaussian 10y ago
My motivations are mainly a frustration over the lack of useful discussion and the propensity of people to lock themselves into certain discussional tropes. I'm also massively conflicted over the kinds of people I want to br working amongst; whilst Academics tend towards the childish the business class tends towards the immoral. I'm actually surprised that its as low as 9.7%, though of course that is direct funding and won't account for losses from businesses and who move (large banks bankroll the local Uni) or reduce spending. What is notable in the funding is a decidedly different attitude to dealing with the problem, though this may simply be that researchers can't do much to affect funding wheras business iwners can. As for echo chambers specifically - it can be heart-wrenching to be amongst several groups. The previous Scottish referendum caused significant damage to my family relationships, and the brexit is doing the same to my friends. There are few people willing to consider they don't and can't know all the facts.

Angostura 10y ago

> Post brexit they are generally quite happy They're not post-Brexit. Currently the will be reaping the benefits of the low pound for exports, plus still have access to the European market, plus still be able to employ nice cheap Eastern European labour if they so wish. Let's wait until they are actually post-Brexit, shall we?

Normal_gaussian 10y ago
No, we are all aware of that. What I intended to convey was that they are not worried. They have talked to their partners made a bunch of pre arrangements, and essentially decided that all is, and will be, well.