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Christianity, like Islam, and Secular Humanism is fundamentally internationalist, holding itself to be the universal ideal of correctness. Christianity and Isl

Christianity, like Islam, and Secular Humanism is fundamentally internationalist, holding itself to be the universal ideal of correctness. Christianity and Islam both came out of, effectively the Roman Empire (in fact both the Mosque and Cathedral were built based on the plans of the same classes of Roman buildings). Secular Humanism is effectively a reinterpretation of Calvinism along atheistic lines. As far as I can see, however, Orthodox Christianity didn't have the same history in this regard as Western Christianity did. Part of this was that the Eastern Empire lasted a lot longer, and part was that the spread occurred to Kiev and Novogorod under very different circumstances than it did to Denmark or the Franks. But in the West, the promise offered was that the Church (Roman) would help kings solidify power in return for conversion. It was from that promise that eventually the kings secured their independence by means of the reformation. And secular humanism is effectively an effort to banish competition to the state from the public square in this regard so it too is a further development of the same mistake.

humanrebar 10y ago
> Secular Humanism is effectively a reinterpretation of Calvinism along atheistic lines. Considering that predestination is a central theme of Calvinism, I have a hard time understanding this thought. Removing God from Calvinism doesn't leave one with much at all.
- einhverfr 10y ago
  Without a mechanistic view of things, predestination is impossible. So without God, Calvinism gives us a sense of the universe as a great machine. Other cultures may see the universe as a great mountain or a great tree.....
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    A mechanicistic view is only necessary if God is mostly "hands off". Alternatively, God could be regularly be tweaking things to make sure his plan happens.
    - einhverfr 10y ago
      And yet Calvin himself rejected such a tweaking view regarding predestination. His argument for predestination was simply that some people are good enough and others aren't, and God knows who is good enough and who isn't. It's also worth noting that both Thomas Hobbes and JJ Rousseau came from Calvinist circles. So I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that the Hobbes/Rousseau (and those closely influenced by them, such as those of Locke) are effectively Calvinism as applied to society and clothed in secular rhetoric.
ittekimasu 10y ago
That is a very astute observation. Those of us who've seen secular humanist tenets of "rights", being cynically used for all sorts of geopolitical ends, will realize how easy it is to excite folk with such talking points. People don't realize the dangers of such universalist notions.
- einhverfr 10y ago
  And of course there is no cross-cultural empistemology that allows us to know which rights are universal, so they always become an excuse to power.
  - ittekimasu 10y ago
    Indeed. Worse yet, those alien to this sphere, are not even aware of this lack of understanding - which is probably why it is so destructive, culturally, for colonized peoples. I would've hoped those in "social sciences" would work to rectify such issues, but in their new garb of post-modernism, they've yet more become the new priesthood.
    - einhverfr 10y ago
      Indeed. The only reason I can see the other side to this is that I have been married to a woman from a Indonesia for over a decade now. It has been a long process to understand the cultural differences. And I have enjoyed studying anthropology quite a lot. The one thing that does save things a little bit is that Westerners are usually so out of touch that there really isn't much room for us to do much that doesn't just effectively turn into disengagement. But even that poses real problems. I do my best to help engage in dialog on both sides of very culturally bound issues in order to try to foster some room for dialog through disagreement but getting Westerners in general (and Americans in particular) to accept that an issue like abortion or same-sex marriage is dependent on culture and other cultural institutions (such as how family relates to the economic order) is virtually impossible. That also gets to what is wrong with multiculturalism in the US, namely that it is being pushed by people who hate culture generally.

humanrebar 10y ago

> Secular Humanism is effectively a reinterpretation of Calvinism along atheistic lines. Considering that predestination is a central theme of Calvinism, I have a hard time understanding this thought. Removing God from Calvinism doesn't leave one with much at all.

einhverfr 10y ago
Without a mechanistic view of things, predestination is impossible. So without God, Calvinism gives us a sense of the universe as a great machine. Other cultures may see the universe as a great mountain or a great tree.....
- humanrebar 10y ago
  A mechanicistic view is only necessary if God is mostly "hands off". Alternatively, God could be regularly be tweaking things to make sure his plan happens.
  - einhverfr 10y ago
    And yet Calvin himself rejected such a tweaking view regarding predestination. His argument for predestination was simply that some people are good enough and others aren't, and God knows who is good enough and who isn't. It's also worth noting that both Thomas Hobbes and JJ Rousseau came from Calvinist circles. So I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that the Hobbes/Rousseau (and those closely influenced by them, such as those of Locke) are effectively Calvinism as applied to society and clothed in secular rhetoric.

ittekimasu 10y ago

That is a very astute observation. Those of us who've seen secular humanist tenets of "rights", being cynically used for all sorts of geopolitical ends, will realize how easy it is to excite folk with such talking points. People don't realize the dangers of such universalist notions.

einhverfr 10y ago
And of course there is no cross-cultural empistemology that allows us to know which rights are universal, so they always become an excuse to power.
- ittekimasu 10y ago
  Indeed. Worse yet, those alien to this sphere, are not even aware of this lack of understanding - which is probably why it is so destructive, culturally, for colonized peoples. I would've hoped those in "social sciences" would work to rectify such issues, but in their new garb of post-modernism, they've yet more become the new priesthood.
  - einhverfr 10y ago
    Indeed. The only reason I can see the other side to this is that I have been married to a woman from a Indonesia for over a decade now. It has been a long process to understand the cultural differences. And I have enjoyed studying anthropology quite a lot. The one thing that does save things a little bit is that Westerners are usually so out of touch that there really isn't much room for us to do much that doesn't just effectively turn into disengagement. But even that poses real problems. I do my best to help engage in dialog on both sides of very culturally bound issues in order to try to foster some room for dialog through disagreement but getting Westerners in general (and Americans in particular) to accept that an issue like abortion or same-sex marriage is dependent on culture and other cultural institutions (such as how family relates to the economic order) is virtually impossible. That also gets to what is wrong with multiculturalism in the US, namely that it is being pushed by people who hate culture generally.