6 ms·

The experience of 80% of credit card readers being defective is so statistically anomalous that the only reasonable thing to do if someone claims it is to disbe

by p4wnc6 10y ago

The experience of 80% of credit card readers being defective is so statistically anomalous that the only reasonable thing to do if someone claims it is to disbelieve them. Unless they have hard evidence, you are perfectly justified to say, you know what, that's just too absurdly far-fetched to give it credit. Same thing if someone says literally zero taxis they have ever used have been in clean condition. That's a many-standard-deviations-from-the-mean event and I don't believe it. The more likely hypothesis is that you're being hyperbolic out of frustration with my other points. It may indeed be rude for me to directly point it out, but given the way others are treating me in the thread, I won't lose any sleep over it. I don't think I'm making cutting remarks, only remarks that are consistent with basic, universal experiences, not just of me, but everywhere. Others seem to seek to take these basic, universal experiences and try to claim they aren't universal, and that instead their experiences of crazy statistical outlier events (e.g. zero clean taxis ever) somehow are the common and universal experiences, and that I am being presumptuous or rude for disbelieving that they actually experienced some exceedingly rare event that shouldn't be believed. It's completely unreasonable to believe that saying 80% of card readers are broken and there are zero clean taxis deserves to be compared in the same breath as a claim like almost every time I rode in a taxi it was just a normal functioning car and nothing stood out as functionally broken or meaningfully substandard in quality. The two things are not the same kind of claim, even categorically, no matter how much people in the thread don't like it.

kaishiro 10y ago
Can you please point out exactly where I said that 80% of card readers are broken? You keep stating this figure as coming from my mouth and are using it as an avenue to call me a liar. Please, go ahead, show me.
- p4wnc6 10y ago
  I did not claim that you said it, not at all, and that's a definite misrepresentation of what I'm talking about. The comment in which it was said is here: < https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12191938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12191938 >. I am comparing whatever anecdotes (yours and others) that are supposedly backed up by lots of people you know, with this. While the people you know might have had some bad experiences sometimes, I wouldn't believe they were anywhere near the claims going on in this thread. If your connections reported occasional bad experiences with taxis, who would care? It couldn't possibly be relevant to a thread where the entire context of the thread is that people are saying that all Boston taxis are almost always awful and almost always have broken card readers, etc. I'm not sure how to explain it. I'm trying to say that the connections whose informal opinions you cite as backup couldn't possibly have said something as extreme as what the other people of this thread are saying -- in which case whatever minor and totally expected occasional complaints your sources have had, they aren't relevant.
kaishiro 10y ago
"I'm trying to say that the connections whose informal opinions you cite as backup couldn't possibly have said something as extreme as what the other people of this thread are saying." The mental gymnastics required to follow your train of thought are just astounding. You're argument here seems to be that the opinions of my friends and family can't possibly match with what other people, not even myself have said in a completely different part of this thread. I mean, I guess I agree? What a truly bizarre statement. "I'm not sure how to explain it." On this point, we are in complete agreement.
- p4wnc6 10y ago
  You cited the opinions of connections to backup your general feeling that taxi service is bad. Is it your opinion, or the consensus opinion of your connections, that 80% of the time the card reader is broken, or that the percentage of taxis which are clean is near 0 (or some other claim similar to these)? If you're not making claims of that extremity, then whatever you are talking about isn't very related to what anyone else here has said, and depending on the specifics, I may even agree with you, but it wouldn't be relevant to a thread where the primary claim that started the disussion is that taxi service is overwhelmingly always unbelievably bad. If you are making claims of that extremity, then I don't believe them, and feel that disbelieving them is simply a matter of the claims being too much of an outlier to deserve any serious plausibility.
kaishiro 10y ago
Well, I still do believe you, because I don't make it a habit of calling a person a liar with no verifiable proof to the contrary. Good luck with everything.
- p4wnc6 10y ago
  Just as a total aside, sometimes the 'reply' link doesn't appear beneath a comment, especially if it is new. If you click on the permalink for that comment (the time next to the commenter's username), it will take you to a page for just that comment, and will have a box for replying. I only mention it because I believe you are replying to comments below, but by making replies to an earlier comment instead of the actual comment you are replying to -- and sometimes this is why. I've definitely done that before, and thought perhaps it was a reply limit from HN or something (which can happen). > I don't make it a habit of calling a person a liar with no verifiable proof to the contrary. This is an unfair mischaracterization of what I've said. If someone makes an extraordinary claim and has no evidence, you probably shouldn't just believe it. Choosing not to believe it based on a reasonable statistical premise (e.g. the failure rate of card readers is not high enough such that 80% of them are always broken) is perfectly valid, and is not impolite or rude. It's not at all the same thing as "calling them a liar." The burden of proof is on the party making extraordinary claims.
  - kaishiro 10y ago
    First off, I actually appreciate that - I always just assumed it was a nesting limit! That aside, honest question, because I truly don't understand. You've said things like "I never once experienced a broken credit card machine" and "they were always early and helped me with my bags". I find these claims equally as fantastic as the claims that you seem to disregard from others (not myself) re: this 80% figure. I honestly, truly do not believe that every cab you ever called in 8 years was early. Moreso, I find it very difficult to believe that you believe that this is normal. So, all this being said, why is it that you feel that your stance on that end of the spectrum is right, and others are wrong. Where is your evidence (not anecdotal), for passing the burden of proof for the extraordinary claims you're making?

by p4wnc6 10y ago

kaishiro 10y ago

Can you please point out exactly where I said that 80% of card readers are broken? You keep stating this figure as coming from my mouth and are using it as an avenue to call me a liar. Please, go ahead, show me.

p4wnc6 10y ago
I did not claim that you said it, not at all, and that's a definite misrepresentation of what I'm talking about. The comment in which it was said is here: < https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12191938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12191938 >. I am comparing whatever anecdotes (yours and others) that are supposedly backed up by lots of people you know, with this. While the people you know might have had some bad experiences sometimes, I wouldn't believe they were anywhere near the claims going on in this thread. If your connections reported occasional bad experiences with taxis, who would care? It couldn't possibly be relevant to a thread where the entire context of the thread is that people are saying that all Boston taxis are almost always awful and almost always have broken card readers, etc. I'm not sure how to explain it. I'm trying to say that the connections whose informal opinions you cite as backup couldn't possibly have said something as extreme as what the other people of this thread are saying -- in which case whatever minor and totally expected occasional complaints your sources have had, they aren't relevant.

kaishiro 10y ago

"I'm trying to say that the connections whose informal opinions you cite as backup couldn't possibly have said something as extreme as what the other people of this thread are saying." The mental gymnastics required to follow your train of thought are just astounding. You're argument here seems to be that the opinions of my friends and family can't possibly match with what other people, not even myself have said in a completely different part of this thread. I mean, I guess I agree? What a truly bizarre statement. "I'm not sure how to explain it." On this point, we are in complete agreement.

p4wnc6 10y ago
You cited the opinions of connections to backup your general feeling that taxi service is bad. Is it your opinion, or the consensus opinion of your connections, that 80% of the time the card reader is broken, or that the percentage of taxis which are clean is near 0 (or some other claim similar to these)? If you're not making claims of that extremity, then whatever you are talking about isn't very related to what anyone else here has said, and depending on the specifics, I may even agree with you, but it wouldn't be relevant to a thread where the primary claim that started the disussion is that taxi service is overwhelmingly always unbelievably bad. If you are making claims of that extremity, then I don't believe them, and feel that disbelieving them is simply a matter of the claims being too much of an outlier to deserve any serious plausibility.

kaishiro 10y ago

Well, I still do believe you, because I don't make it a habit of calling a person a liar with no verifiable proof to the contrary. Good luck with everything.

p4wnc6 10y ago
Just as a total aside, sometimes the 'reply' link doesn't appear beneath a comment, especially if it is new. If you click on the permalink for that comment (the time next to the commenter's username), it will take you to a page for just that comment, and will have a box for replying. I only mention it because I believe you are replying to comments below, but by making replies to an earlier comment instead of the actual comment you are replying to -- and sometimes this is why. I've definitely done that before, and thought perhaps it was a reply limit from HN or something (which can happen). > I don't make it a habit of calling a person a liar with no verifiable proof to the contrary. This is an unfair mischaracterization of what I've said. If someone makes an extraordinary claim and has no evidence, you probably shouldn't just believe it. Choosing not to believe it based on a reasonable statistical premise (e.g. the failure rate of card readers is not high enough such that 80% of them are always broken) is perfectly valid, and is not impolite or rude. It's not at all the same thing as "calling them a liar." The burden of proof is on the party making extraordinary claims.
- kaishiro 10y ago
  First off, I actually appreciate that - I always just assumed it was a nesting limit! That aside, honest question, because I truly don't understand. You've said things like "I never once experienced a broken credit card machine" and "they were always early and helped me with my bags". I find these claims equally as fantastic as the claims that you seem to disregard from others (not myself) re: this 80% figure. I honestly, truly do not believe that every cab you ever called in 8 years was early. Moreso, I find it very difficult to believe that you believe that this is normal. So, all this being said, why is it that you feel that your stance on that end of the spectrum is right, and others are wrong. Where is your evidence (not anecdotal), for passing the burden of proof for the extraordinary claims you're making?