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Because of evidence from atheist leaders from the French reign of terror through all communist madmen until today. No religion, not even if you count Hitler rel

Because of evidence from atheist leaders from the French reign of terror through all communist madmen until today. No religion, not even if you count Hitler religios (dubious claim in the first place I'd say) comes close to Mao and Stalin.

mikeash 10y ago
I'd say the Taiping Rebellion was just as bad. When you consider that they didn't have access to the sort of industrialized death that people on your list did, I'd say it was much worse.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  TIL. Upvoted. Still hard to beat 20th century communist atheists in efficiently killing off their own populations or French revolutionaries in being creatively evil.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    I would say that nothing beats the genocide of the Americas for sheer scope, numbers, duration, and cultural loss. All of your examples ended in a decade or two, that lasted centuries.
    - hourislate 10y ago
      My intent is not to diminish the genocide of the Americas but.... I don't think you realize how many people Stalin, Mao, Hitler have killed. We all know Hitler had to resort to incineration to get rid of the bodies. Stalin filled mines with the remains of Ukrainians and others. They couldn't dig holes big enough to bury the dead. I have no idea what Mao did with the 50-80 million bodies he had on his hands. Between just these 3 guys your looking at well over 100 million people and that is not including war dead. Just people being exterminated for various reasons. So to say that nothing beats the genocide of the Americas is not accurate.
      - 0134340 10y ago
        The Nazi movement had Christian influence. Whether it influenced the movement in a malicious way is arguable but Nazism wasn't an entirely secular movement. Hitler used the term in Article 24 of the 1920 Nazi Party Platform, stating: "the Party represents the standpoint of Positive Christianity". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity And to be intellectually honest, none of those you stated committed atrocities in the doctrine of atheism because it has none. Don't throw atheism under the bus when someone criticizes your religion because atheism is the lack of belief in gods, nothing more.
        reitanqild 10y ago
        Listen up: I'm not here to pick on atheists. I do have many friends who are and I think I see many who behave more decently than many religious. It is only when someone mounts sweeping attacks on all or specific religions, based on things that, -while done in name of said religion-, are not described in the sacred texts of said religion, -then I do use the opportunity to gove a little history lesson. Because if I and other Christians should feel bad because genocide of X, Y and Z then certainly atheists should feel bad because of the reign of terror, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. Or rather; not. None of us should. If we should feel bad about anything it is that we aren't doing more now. That certainly bothers me.
        formula1 10y ago
        Thats really what I got out this particular segment. Religion to the individual is more important than the political implications. Theres an argument to be made about what the human mind is more likely to latch on to and what is worth having faith in. But here we see that it is a stronger power than those who try to abuse its name. And that in itself is rather beautiful in my opinion
        vacri 10y ago
        As an atheist, why should I feel bad because someone else also lacked a belief in any particular religion? There's no atheist text to follow, no atheist moral guidelines. It's just an absence of belief in religion - there's no shared base there. Similarly, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot weren't working off some sort of atheist guidebook; atheism was incidental to their 'religion', which was communism. They didn't spread atheism for atheism's sake, they oppressed religious powers because they were competitors for power. And as the OP said, Christianity today is still used to persecute and oppress. Catholicism still covers up paedophile priests. There are states in the US where an atheist is barred from holding office. Fake 'faith healers' continuously bilk people out of their money. Some flavours of the faith don't allow women to be priests. Yes, there are abusive atheists in modern western democracies, but those atheists are not saying things like "women can't hold positions of power" or "ain't no paedophiles here" or similar to protect their atheism. You're tired of feeling bad because of the dark corners of your religion? I'm tired of the canard of Stalin/Mao/Pot.
    - mkstowegnv 10y ago
      There is no point in making sweeping generalizations about any sizable human group - humans never behave monolithically. This certainly applies to Christianity and Islam with all their history of sects that have spent half their energy fighting the other sects within the "same" religion. It makes even less sense in the case of "atheism" which encompasses many unrelated belief systems. Many have argued that many of the belief system movements ostensibly related to Marxism went on to commit great evil precisely because they became defacto religions complete with bibles (e.g. red books), prophesy and personality cult "Gods". Somehow no matter whatever humanistic goals belief movements start with, very quickly individuals within the movement are able to increase their own power by emphasizing the need to demonize outsiders/ non-believers and to squelch disagreement.

mikeash 10y ago

I'd say the Taiping Rebellion was just as bad. When you consider that they didn't have access to the sort of industrialized death that people on your list did, I'd say it was much worse.

reitanqild 10y ago
TIL. Upvoted. Still hard to beat 20th century communist atheists in efficiently killing off their own populations or French revolutionaries in being creatively evil.
- mikeash 10y ago
  I would say that nothing beats the genocide of the Americas for sheer scope, numbers, duration, and cultural loss. All of your examples ended in a decade or two, that lasted centuries.
  - hourislate 10y ago
    My intent is not to diminish the genocide of the Americas but.... I don't think you realize how many people Stalin, Mao, Hitler have killed. We all know Hitler had to resort to incineration to get rid of the bodies. Stalin filled mines with the remains of Ukrainians and others. They couldn't dig holes big enough to bury the dead. I have no idea what Mao did with the 50-80 million bodies he had on his hands. Between just these 3 guys your looking at well over 100 million people and that is not including war dead. Just people being exterminated for various reasons. So to say that nothing beats the genocide of the Americas is not accurate.
    - 0134340 10y ago
      The Nazi movement had Christian influence. Whether it influenced the movement in a malicious way is arguable but Nazism wasn't an entirely secular movement. Hitler used the term in Article 24 of the 1920 Nazi Party Platform, stating: "the Party represents the standpoint of Positive Christianity". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity And to be intellectually honest, none of those you stated committed atrocities in the doctrine of atheism because it has none. Don't throw atheism under the bus when someone criticizes your religion because atheism is the lack of belief in gods, nothing more.
      - reitanqild 10y ago
        Listen up: I'm not here to pick on atheists. I do have many friends who are and I think I see many who behave more decently than many religious. It is only when someone mounts sweeping attacks on all or specific religions, based on things that, -while done in name of said religion-, are not described in the sacred texts of said religion, -then I do use the opportunity to gove a little history lesson. Because if I and other Christians should feel bad because genocide of X, Y and Z then certainly atheists should feel bad because of the reign of terror, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. Or rather; not. None of us should. If we should feel bad about anything it is that we aren't doing more now. That certainly bothers me.
        formula1 10y ago
        Thats really what I got out this particular segment. Religion to the individual is more important than the political implications. Theres an argument to be made about what the human mind is more likely to latch on to and what is worth having faith in. But here we see that it is a stronger power than those who try to abuse its name. And that in itself is rather beautiful in my opinion
        vacri 10y ago
        As an atheist, why should I feel bad because someone else also lacked a belief in any particular religion? There's no atheist text to follow, no atheist moral guidelines. It's just an absence of belief in religion - there's no shared base there. Similarly, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot weren't working off some sort of atheist guidebook; atheism was incidental to their 'religion', which was communism. They didn't spread atheism for atheism's sake, they oppressed religious powers because they were competitors for power. And as the OP said, Christianity today is still used to persecute and oppress. Catholicism still covers up paedophile priests. There are states in the US where an atheist is barred from holding office. Fake 'faith healers' continuously bilk people out of their money. Some flavours of the faith don't allow women to be priests. Yes, there are abusive atheists in modern western democracies, but those atheists are not saying things like "women can't hold positions of power" or "ain't no paedophiles here" or similar to protect their atheism. You're tired of feeling bad because of the dark corners of your religion? I'm tired of the canard of Stalin/Mao/Pot.
  - mkstowegnv 10y ago
    There is no point in making sweeping generalizations about any sizable human group - humans never behave monolithically. This certainly applies to Christianity and Islam with all their history of sects that have spent half their energy fighting the other sects within the "same" religion. It makes even less sense in the case of "atheism" which encompasses many unrelated belief systems. Many have argued that many of the belief system movements ostensibly related to Marxism went on to commit great evil precisely because they became defacto religions complete with bibles (e.g. red books), prophesy and personality cult "Gods". Somehow no matter whatever humanistic goals belief movements start with, very quickly individuals within the movement are able to increase their own power by emphasizing the need to demonize outsiders/ non-believers and to squelch disagreement.