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Sure, but I bet your solar panels don't manufacture and maintain themselves. To the GP's point, the total cost of ownership of a plant that makes gasoline-leve

Sure, but I bet your solar panels don't manufacture and maintain themselves. To the GP's point, the total cost of ownership of a plant that makes gasoline-level fuel is going to be more about water and land than anything else. But the efficiency of solar panels, considering their subsidies, the rare minerals used in their manufacture, their delivery and their maintenance... I'm confident it's a lot less than e.g. coal, even accounting for pollution costs, because if it really were cheaper all-around we'd be using it everywhere!

maxerickson 10y ago
If you look at trajectory, coal is in decline and solar panels are being installed at a great clip. The decline in coal is mostly due to natural gas, but in the US, generation from solar tripled between 2013 and 2015. https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_1_1 https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cf...
skriticos2 10y ago
>> "don't manufacture and maintain themselves" Well, for any kind of industrial operation you'll want to plant the trees.. then there is the 10-20 year growth period that's kind of a problem for planning flexibility.. and then you need to chop them down and move them to the power plant which is a non-trivial and costly logistical constraint. All the while the solar cell sits there and produces energy without any intervention. That's a big difference.. Also, wood does not scale well, there is just so much space for forests.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  Solar cells don't just sit there without intervention, and have larger up-front capital and labour costs than planting an orchard, or more appropriately, fuelwood or timber forests. And have a lifespan of 20-25 years. Plants are a pretty neat technology, all told.
  - maerF0x0 10y ago
    I dont know how much they differ but planting trees has lots of cost. I estimate the cost of planting is something like $3 per surviving tree. (Cause you usually over plant assuming many will die).
    - dredmorbius 10y ago
      Depends on the tree. For some forestry applications, seeding is done from the air. Note that if you're growing wood for fuel, you're not worried about grafting stock, or the net health (much), or overcrowding (you can thin later if necessary), etc. Planting orchards is, as it happens, pretty expensive. But that's also a pretty high-end case, and the expected life is generally 20-50+ years. Upwards of 300 in cases (olives, grapes, and citrus).
      - maerF0x0 10y ago
        I was not referring to orchards, but for regular logging industry. Those cycles are about 60-80 yrs between harvests.

maxerickson 10y ago

If you look at trajectory, coal is in decline and solar panels are being installed at a great clip. The decline in coal is mostly due to natural gas, but in the US, generation from solar tripled between 2013 and 2015. https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_1_1 https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cf...

skriticos2 10y ago

>> "don't manufacture and maintain themselves" Well, for any kind of industrial operation you'll want to plant the trees.. then there is the 10-20 year growth period that's kind of a problem for planning flexibility.. and then you need to chop them down and move them to the power plant which is a non-trivial and costly logistical constraint. All the while the solar cell sits there and produces energy without any intervention. That's a big difference.. Also, wood does not scale well, there is just so much space for forests.

dredmorbius 10y ago
Solar cells don't just sit there without intervention, and have larger up-front capital and labour costs than planting an orchard, or more appropriately, fuelwood or timber forests. And have a lifespan of 20-25 years. Plants are a pretty neat technology, all told.
- maerF0x0 10y ago
  I dont know how much they differ but planting trees has lots of cost. I estimate the cost of planting is something like $3 per surviving tree. (Cause you usually over plant assuming many will die).
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    Depends on the tree. For some forestry applications, seeding is done from the air. Note that if you're growing wood for fuel, you're not worried about grafting stock, or the net health (much), or overcrowding (you can thin later if necessary), etc. Planting orchards is, as it happens, pretty expensive. But that's also a pretty high-end case, and the expected life is generally 20-50+ years. Upwards of 300 in cases (olives, grapes, and citrus).
    - maerF0x0 10y ago
      I was not referring to orchards, but for regular logging industry. Those cycles are about 60-80 yrs between harvests.