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The Last Florida Indians Will Now Die: The Westward Plight of the Apalachee
- formula1 10y agoThis really hit home for me though I don't particularly care for the retelling of history as if it was a movie. I understand the need to give perspective in order to understand the effect that Europe had on Native Americans both in north and south america. I always relate it to an invasive species that out matches the an ecosystem and doesnt curb its hunger because there is no reason to. I find it particularly poetic how the Chief said with pride "We were the first Christian tribe". Christianity originating from the middle east with the new testimate being under European rule. Has been used countless times in europe to excuse genocide and invasion. Was brought by europeans under a guise of peace mission whom eventually went on to completely ravage two continents. Christianity even today is used to excuse persecution and oppress. Yet despite all of this, knowing it is not native gods and being on the brink of extinction and erasure from memory. He takes pride in the lasting faith in the tribe. And imagining him say those words I think of dedication and love. Im sensitive about this because I feel like I would be consudered a necessary sacrifice or even entertaining to dominate/exploit. This particular board tends to attract alpha mentalities in the startup industry So Im curious on your thoughts
- einhverfr 10y agoChristianity, like Islam, and Secular Humanism is fundamentally internationalist, holding itself to be the universal ideal of correctness. Christianity and Islam both came out of, effectively the Roman Empire (in fact both the Mosque and Cathedral were built based on the plans of the same classes of Roman buildings). Secular Humanism is effectively a reinterpretation of Calvinism along atheistic lines. As far as I can see, however, Orthodox Christianity didn't have the same history in this regard as Western Christianity did. Part of this was that the Eastern Empire lasted a lot longer, and part was that the spread occurred to Kiev and Novogorod under very different circumstances than it did to Denmark or the Franks. But in the West, the promise offered was that the Church (Roman) would help kings solidify power in return for conversion. It was from that promise that eventually the kings secured their independence by means of the reformation. And secular humanism is effectively an effort to banish competition to the state from the public square in this regard so it too is a further development of the same mistake.
- humanrebar 10y ago> Secular Humanism is effectively a reinterpretation of Calvinism along atheistic lines. Considering that predestination is a central theme of Calvinism, I have a hard time understanding this thought. Removing God from Calvinism doesn't leave one with much at all.
- einhverfr 10y agoWithout a mechanistic view of things, predestination is impossible. So without God, Calvinism gives us a sense of the universe as a great machine. Other cultures may see the universe as a great mountain or a great tree.....
- humanrebar 10y agoA mechanicistic view is only necessary if God is mostly "hands off". Alternatively, God could be regularly be tweaking things to make sure his plan happens.
- einhverfr 10y agoAnd yet Calvin himself rejected such a tweaking view regarding predestination. His argument for predestination was simply that some people are good enough and others aren't, and God knows who is good enough and who isn't. It's also worth noting that both Thomas Hobbes and JJ Rousseau came from Calvinist circles. So I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that the Hobbes/Rousseau (and those closely influenced by them, such as those of Locke) are effectively Calvinism as applied to society and clothed in secular rhetoric.
- ittekimasu 10y agoThat is a very astute observation. Those of us who've seen secular humanist tenets of "rights", being cynically used for all sorts of geopolitical ends, will realize how easy it is to excite folk with such talking points. People don't realize the dangers of such universalist notions.
- x86_64Ubuntu 10y agoI've always been upset at how those of us in the indigenous communities cling to Christianity as some absolving attribute. Land stolen, dignity stolen, labor stolen, and for some reason we seek refuge in a religion that was largely imposed on us.
- ittekimasu 10y agoIt's not just you; happens the world over. Phillipines, Africa ... nearly all colonized peoples - if not in "religion", then in culture and language.
- humanrebar 10y agoPrickling at Western formal-wear or music makes sense. They are aesthetic and mostly arbitrary choices. Lamenting the loss of language makes sense to me too. But there are questions whose answers are not affected by history, choices, or even atrocities. Is a God? What his character? I don't understand why one would reject god to spite a people group, culture, or what-have-you. On the contrary, my ancestors include a Native American that married a preacher. She clearly had a different perspective on at least that man, his beliefs, and his god.
- reitanqild 10y agoBecause it helps to some degree I guess. Also keep in mind that the lack of religion is statistically worse as shown by too many examples. :-/
- karmajunkie 10y ago1) Please cite your statistical evidence. 2) Non-christian does not mean non-religious. Indigenous communities the world over have their own religions.
- reitanqild 10y ago> 1) Please cite your statistical evidence. Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot; all of them worse than everything even the Catholic church ever did.
- leemailll 10y agoAt least the four of them didn't invade a land and massacre locals.
- panzagl 10y agoYeah, Stalin was a sweetheart to the neighbors.
- true_religion 10y ago
- reitanqild 10y ago> Christianity even today is used to excuse persecution and oppress. I guess that is totally fair as long as we also keep in mind that most of the biggest crimes against humanity were committed by proclaimed atheists.
- soosjak_kajooks 10y agoExcept, of course, the genocide of Native Americans - which was done by self proclaimed Christians.
- reitanqild 10y agoDoesn't refute my point that the fact that Christians as well as "Christians" oppressed the Indians were mostly coincidental; had Europeans been atheists the results would have likely been very much worse for the natives.
- mikeash 10y agoI would love to know why you think atheists would have been worse.
- reitanqild 10y agoBecause of evidence from atheist leaders from the French reign of terror through all communist madmen until today. No religion, not even if you count Hitler religios (dubious claim in the first place I'd say) comes close to Mao and Stalin.
- mikeash 10y agoI'd say the Taiping Rebellion was just as bad. When you consider that they didn't have access to the sort of industrialized death that people on your list did, I'd say it was much worse.
- 10y ago
- taksintikk 10y agoNative Americans ..not Indians.
- rhino369 10y agoBoth terms are fine unless someone personally asks you to stop.
- witty_username 10y agoAs an Asian Indian, it confused me for a few seconds.
- js2 10y agoFYI - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controv...
- DefaultUserHN 10y agoShame that this is what usually happens when you gets conquered. You're literally at the mercy of your conquerors. Why don't conquerors ever treat the people they conquered with respect, and work hard to make their life better? Why do conquerors always make life harder and worst for the people they conquered?
- humanrebar 10y agoAny perspectives on post WWII Germany and the Marshall Plan? American textbooks teach that honorable conquest was the exact goal of that initiative. Is Germany worse off now? Or Japan? Or South Korea?
- DefaultUserHN 10y agoInteresting. I am surprised that this was not widely taught in schools where I am from. They tend to focus on the negative aspects of America only.