4 ms·

I am not saying you are asking the wrong question of anything, and I am sorry if it reads as a snarky comment, but if it quack like a duck, walks like a duck an

by caio1982 10y ago

I am not saying you are asking the wrong question of anything, and I am sorry if it reads as a snarky comment, but if it quack like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck... it's shadowy politics after all, not physics. Would you expect the coup organizers to have written paper notes saying "yes, we did it"?

marcoperaza 10y ago
>I am not saying you are asking the wrong question of anything, and I am sorry if it reads as a snarky comment, but if it quack like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck... it's shadowy politics after all, not physics. Would you expect the coup organizers to have written paper notes saying "yes, we did it"? Given that all of the previous military coups in Turkey were carried out by the secularist military establishment, you need to present evidence beyond accusations that the Gulenist movement, an Islamist movement, is behind this one. Show us the quacking and walking.
- afsina 10y ago
  For quacking, http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-fethullah-gülen-13504.html http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-fethullah-gülen-13504.h... check paragraph of quotation from a Gulen's leaked speech. For walking, multiple sources confirms that for years, they stole questions for army and police college entrance exams. Of course also the statements of coup officials.
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    Again, given that the all previous military coups have been conducted by secularists, you're gonna need to provide specific evidence that the coup was planned by the Gulenists. The quotation you point to has nothing to do with the coup at all, it's from the 90s and describes a totally different hypothetical situation, one in which his supporters have seized control of all state institutions. That is clearly not the case. It's Erdogan's AKP that has gradually seized control of all institutions in Turkey.
    - afsina 10y ago
      The events of 2013-2014 that solely aimed overthrowing Erdogan were undeniably controlled by Gulen movement. However they lost the battle big time. One or two weeks before the coup, some army officials in Izmir were detained linked with a previous army spy case and they were linked to Gulen. The supreme military council was about to be happening with the agenda of sacking multiple army officials related with him. IMO, coup was not solely planned by Gulen, but they were involved significantly. Lastly, again, check multiple coup officials' statements.
      - marcoperaza 10y ago
        The confessions of a few captives, under duress from a dictator that's purging both public and private sectors of all opposition under false pretenses and threatening to bring back executions, carry very little weight in my book. There's a long history of compelled false confessions in similar circumstances. The 2013-2014 protests consisted of just about everyone who opposed Erdogan.
        afsina 10y ago
        Events of end of 2013 and 2014 were not about Gezi protests. This is about the corruption scandal and claims. Wikipedia link (Although probably quite biased) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Tur...
      - tim333 10y ago
        If you mean investigating the corrupt for corruption then I'd say that was closer to legitimate democracy than a coup.
        afsina 10y ago
        it was their previous try. It probably contained legitimate claims mixed with stuff that fit their agenda. Now hopeless, they tried their last chance and failed miserably.

marcoperaza 10y ago

>I am not saying you are asking the wrong question of anything, and I am sorry if it reads as a snarky comment, but if it quack like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck... it's shadowy politics after all, not physics. Would you expect the coup organizers to have written paper notes saying "yes, we did it"? Given that all of the previous military coups in Turkey were carried out by the secularist military establishment, you need to present evidence beyond accusations that the Gulenist movement, an Islamist movement, is behind this one. Show us the quacking and walking.

afsina 10y ago
For quacking, http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-fethullah-gülen-13504.html http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-fethullah-gülen-13504.h... check paragraph of quotation from a Gulen's leaked speech. For walking, multiple sources confirms that for years, they stole questions for army and police college entrance exams. Of course also the statements of coup officials.
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  Again, given that the all previous military coups have been conducted by secularists, you're gonna need to provide specific evidence that the coup was planned by the Gulenists. The quotation you point to has nothing to do with the coup at all, it's from the 90s and describes a totally different hypothetical situation, one in which his supporters have seized control of all state institutions. That is clearly not the case. It's Erdogan's AKP that has gradually seized control of all institutions in Turkey.
  - afsina 10y ago
    The events of 2013-2014 that solely aimed overthrowing Erdogan were undeniably controlled by Gulen movement. However they lost the battle big time. One or two weeks before the coup, some army officials in Izmir were detained linked with a previous army spy case and they were linked to Gulen. The supreme military council was about to be happening with the agenda of sacking multiple army officials related with him. IMO, coup was not solely planned by Gulen, but they were involved significantly. Lastly, again, check multiple coup officials' statements.
    - marcoperaza 10y ago
      The confessions of a few captives, under duress from a dictator that's purging both public and private sectors of all opposition under false pretenses and threatening to bring back executions, carry very little weight in my book. There's a long history of compelled false confessions in similar circumstances. The 2013-2014 protests consisted of just about everyone who opposed Erdogan.
      - afsina 10y ago
        Events of end of 2013 and 2014 were not about Gezi protests. This is about the corruption scandal and claims. Wikipedia link (Although probably quite biased) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Tur...
    - tim333 10y ago
      If you mean investigating the corrupt for corruption then I'd say that was closer to legitimate democracy than a coup.
      - afsina 10y ago
        it was their previous try. It probably contained legitimate claims mixed with stuff that fit their agenda. Now hopeless, they tried their last chance and failed miserably.