7 ms·

Is there any real proof that Gulen is behind the coup? I'ved heard a number of Turks both here and on Quora saying he is, but I've never seen any proof presente

by rcheu 10y ago

Is there any real proof that Gulen is behind the coup? I'ved heard a number of Turks both here and on Quora saying he is, but I've never seen any proof presented. It seems like it shouldn't be too hard to find given that the movement is supposedly huge.

caio1982 10y ago
I am not saying you are asking the wrong question of anything, and I am sorry if it reads as a snarky comment, but if it quack like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck... it's shadowy politics after all, not physics. Would you expect the coup organizers to have written paper notes saying "yes, we did it"?
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  >I am not saying you are asking the wrong question of anything, and I am sorry if it reads as a snarky comment, but if it quack like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck... it's shadowy politics after all, not physics. Would you expect the coup organizers to have written paper notes saying "yes, we did it"? Given that all of the previous military coups in Turkey were carried out by the secularist military establishment, you need to present evidence beyond accusations that the Gulenist movement, an Islamist movement, is behind this one. Show us the quacking and walking.
  - afsina 10y ago
    For quacking, http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-fethullah-gülen-13504.html http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-fethullah-gülen-13504.h... check paragraph of quotation from a Gulen's leaked speech. For walking, multiple sources confirms that for years, they stole questions for army and police college entrance exams. Of course also the statements of coup officials.
    - marcoperaza 10y ago
      Again, given that the all previous military coups have been conducted by secularists, you're gonna need to provide specific evidence that the coup was planned by the Gulenists. The quotation you point to has nothing to do with the coup at all, it's from the 90s and describes a totally different hypothetical situation, one in which his supporters have seized control of all state institutions. That is clearly not the case. It's Erdogan's AKP that has gradually seized control of all institutions in Turkey.
      - afsina 10y ago
        The events of 2013-2014 that solely aimed overthrowing Erdogan were undeniably controlled by Gulen movement. However they lost the battle big time. One or two weeks before the coup, some army officials in Izmir were detained linked with a previous army spy case and they were linked to Gulen. The supreme military council was about to be happening with the agenda of sacking multiple army officials related with him. IMO, coup was not solely planned by Gulen, but they were involved significantly. Lastly, again, check multiple coup officials' statements.
        marcoperaza 10y ago
        The confessions of a few captives, under duress from a dictator that's purging both public and private sectors of all opposition under false pretenses and threatening to bring back executions, carry very little weight in my book. There's a long history of compelled false confessions in similar circumstances. The 2013-2014 protests consisted of just about everyone who opposed Erdogan.
        afsina 10y ago
        Events of end of 2013 and 2014 were not about Gezi protests. This is about the corruption scandal and claims. Wikipedia link (Although probably quite biased) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Tur...
        tim333 10y ago
mrtksn 10y ago
Very valid question and I tried to explain it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12189296 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12189296 Basically, few police chiefs dismissed for Gulen affiliation were caught inside the tanks involved in the coup and there are videos of it.
- virtuabhi 10y ago
  Sorry, but you have not provided any proof in the linked comment. It is just hearsay.
  - mrtksn 10y ago
    Fair enough. Here is an article with a video: http://www.mynet.com/haber/guncel/emniyet-muduru-vatan-caddesinde-tank-icinde-yakalandi-2541005-1 http://www.mynet.com/haber/guncel/emniyet-muduru-vatan-cadde... If you were a Gulenist you would have claimed that this video is not what it isand try to be likeable so people who don't speak Turkish would choose to believe you. A proper Gulenist would say that this video just shows a guy in a military uniform. What you should do is to google the name of the guy and find old articles with photos about him being dismissed from his job as a police chief. There are reports about him committing suicide.
    - virtuabhi 10y ago
      From reading a few articles with help of Google Translate, the current purge of Gulenists seems to be similar to persecution of Falun Gong in China. Just another case of history repeating itself.
      - mrtksn 10y ago
        The subject is incredibly complex. Google Translate would not help you. I would suggest reading articles by foreigners living in Turkey. Try Claire Berlinsky, a British national and the biographer of Margaret Thatchet. She is living in Turkey since a decade and closely following the political science. https://mobile.twitter.com/ClaireBerlinski https://mobile.twitter.com/ClaireBerlinski
ozgune 10y ago
Turkish media had overwhelming evidence on this (all members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and many high ranking generals had been incapacitated by their subordinates during the coup attempt). Sadly, none of the communications, testimonies, or sequence of events even superficially surfaced on the Western media. This coup attempt was unusual to Turks in that for twelve hours we didn't know who was behind the coup. Contrast that with the coup in 1980 where the entire Joint Chiefs of Staff appeared on state TV, and informed the public of their action. Edit: Search & translate hurriyet.com or sozcu.com.tr's archives for details. The Hurriyet newspaper is more mainstream, trustworthy, and has been critical of Erdogan. Sozcu is vocally critical of Erdogan (and usually for good reason).
JohnLeTigre 10y ago
From the German newspaper FOCUS: "Half an hour after the shooting started the British intelligence service GCHQ intercepted phone calls, e-mails and SMS from within the Turkish government apparatus saying that the purges would start next day and that Gülen should be presented as the mastermind of the coup" Still too early to confirm since it's the only publication that claims this.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- tim333 10y ago
  It'd be unusual for GCHQ to leak that kind of thing.

by rcheu 10y ago

caio1982 10y ago

I am not saying you are asking the wrong question of anything, and I am sorry if it reads as a snarky comment, but if it quack like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck... it's shadowy politics after all, not physics. Would you expect the coup organizers to have written paper notes saying "yes, we did it"?

marcoperaza 10y ago
>I am not saying you are asking the wrong question of anything, and I am sorry if it reads as a snarky comment, but if it quack like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck... it's shadowy politics after all, not physics. Would you expect the coup organizers to have written paper notes saying "yes, we did it"? Given that all of the previous military coups in Turkey were carried out by the secularist military establishment, you need to present evidence beyond accusations that the Gulenist movement, an Islamist movement, is behind this one. Show us the quacking and walking.
- afsina 10y ago
  For quacking, http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-fethullah-gülen-13504.html http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-fethullah-gülen-13504.h... check paragraph of quotation from a Gulen's leaked speech. For walking, multiple sources confirms that for years, they stole questions for army and police college entrance exams. Of course also the statements of coup officials.
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    Again, given that the all previous military coups have been conducted by secularists, you're gonna need to provide specific evidence that the coup was planned by the Gulenists. The quotation you point to has nothing to do with the coup at all, it's from the 90s and describes a totally different hypothetical situation, one in which his supporters have seized control of all state institutions. That is clearly not the case. It's Erdogan's AKP that has gradually seized control of all institutions in Turkey.
    - afsina 10y ago
      The events of 2013-2014 that solely aimed overthrowing Erdogan were undeniably controlled by Gulen movement. However they lost the battle big time. One or two weeks before the coup, some army officials in Izmir were detained linked with a previous army spy case and they were linked to Gulen. The supreme military council was about to be happening with the agenda of sacking multiple army officials related with him. IMO, coup was not solely planned by Gulen, but they were involved significantly. Lastly, again, check multiple coup officials' statements.
      - marcoperaza 10y ago
        The confessions of a few captives, under duress from a dictator that's purging both public and private sectors of all opposition under false pretenses and threatening to bring back executions, carry very little weight in my book. There's a long history of compelled false confessions in similar circumstances. The 2013-2014 protests consisted of just about everyone who opposed Erdogan.
        afsina 10y ago
        Events of end of 2013 and 2014 were not about Gezi protests. This is about the corruption scandal and claims. Wikipedia link (Although probably quite biased) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Tur...
      - tim333 10y ago

mrtksn 10y ago

Very valid question and I tried to explain it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12189296 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12189296 Basically, few police chiefs dismissed for Gulen affiliation were caught inside the tanks involved in the coup and there are videos of it.

virtuabhi 10y ago
Sorry, but you have not provided any proof in the linked comment. It is just hearsay.
- mrtksn 10y ago
  Fair enough. Here is an article with a video: http://www.mynet.com/haber/guncel/emniyet-muduru-vatan-caddesinde-tank-icinde-yakalandi-2541005-1 http://www.mynet.com/haber/guncel/emniyet-muduru-vatan-cadde... If you were a Gulenist you would have claimed that this video is not what it isand try to be likeable so people who don't speak Turkish would choose to believe you. A proper Gulenist would say that this video just shows a guy in a military uniform. What you should do is to google the name of the guy and find old articles with photos about him being dismissed from his job as a police chief. There are reports about him committing suicide.
  - virtuabhi 10y ago
    From reading a few articles with help of Google Translate, the current purge of Gulenists seems to be similar to persecution of Falun Gong in China. Just another case of history repeating itself.
    - mrtksn 10y ago
      The subject is incredibly complex. Google Translate would not help you. I would suggest reading articles by foreigners living in Turkey. Try Claire Berlinsky, a British national and the biographer of Margaret Thatchet. She is living in Turkey since a decade and closely following the political science. https://mobile.twitter.com/ClaireBerlinski https://mobile.twitter.com/ClaireBerlinski

ozgune 10y ago

Turkish media had overwhelming evidence on this (all members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and many high ranking generals had been incapacitated by their subordinates during the coup attempt). Sadly, none of the communications, testimonies, or sequence of events even superficially surfaced on the Western media. This coup attempt was unusual to Turks in that for twelve hours we didn't know who was behind the coup. Contrast that with the coup in 1980 where the entire Joint Chiefs of Staff appeared on state TV, and informed the public of their action. Edit: Search & translate hurriyet.com or sozcu.com.tr's archives for details. The Hurriyet newspaper is more mainstream, trustworthy, and has been critical of Erdogan. Sozcu is vocally critical of Erdogan (and usually for good reason).

JohnLeTigre 10y ago

From the German newspaper FOCUS: "Half an hour after the shooting started the British intelligence service GCHQ intercepted phone calls, e-mails and SMS from within the Turkish government apparatus saying that the purges would start next day and that Gülen should be presented as the mastermind of the coup" Still too early to confirm since it's the only publication that claims this.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
tim333 10y ago
It'd be unusual for GCHQ to leak that kind of thing.