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Popular opinion in many Western countries also supports the death penalty even where it's outlawed. In general, it's not difficult to find unpopular policy that

Popular opinion in many Western countries also supports the death penalty even where it's outlawed. In general, it's not difficult to find unpopular policy that governments pursue nonetheless, and this does not necessarily result in instability. Another pro-death penalty argument is its deterrent effect. While criminologists found that murder may not be deterred by the death penalty, we would expect other crimes requiring more deliberation and intelligence, to be deterred by the prospect of state killing. There is scope for innovative and beneficial use of the death penalty. For example, serious white collar crime, political corruption, and to enforce anti-discrimination laws.

rmk2 10y ago
I would love to see some reliable statistics that prove support even anywhere near 50% in major European countries for a reintroduction of the death penalty, especially since your remark about "popular opinion" seems to suggest widespread public support for the death penalty that is subsequently ignored by politicians.
- sevenless 10y ago
  > I would love to see some reliable statistics that prove support even anywhere near 50% in major European countries for a reintroduction of the death penalty The UK public until very recently had decisive majority support for the reintroduction of the death penalty. Last year the NatCen British Social Attitudes Report found 48% of the 2,878 people it surveyed were in favour of capital punishment. This is the lowest figure since the survey began in 1983, when around 75% of people were in favour. Capital punishment for murder was abolished in Great Britain in 1965. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822
  - rmk2 10y ago
    Thank you for the link. I guess I should never count out the Brits when it comes to these things! ;) The last reliable thing I found for Germany was an article that cited a rise to 25% after something or other in 2014, which is why I didn't quite expect those numbers. But in these days...
    - cm3 10y ago
      This isn't unique to the UK. Germany: http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article134799279/ http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article134799279/ USA: http://www.people-press.org/2015/04/16/less-support-for-death-penalty-especially-among-democrats/ http://www.people-press.org/2015/04/16/less-support-for-deat...
      - rmk2 10y ago
        It kind of is, though? The US don't count, they have the death penalty and are not a European country, but the UK, just like basically all other European countries (not just EU countries) excluding Belarus & Kazakhstan are members of the Council of Europe, where membership requires abolishing the death penalty. Also, the article for Germany showed, as I said, a rise to 25%, which is really rather far from anything approaching a majority, while the BBC article talked about a decline to 50%. So there is quite a difference.
gutnor 10y ago
> For example, serious white collar crime, political corruption If you look at the actual legal outcome of the financial crisis, Goldman Sachs cooking of Greece books, Euribor Fraud, revolving doors between government a sweet consulting jobs, Panama papers, recurrent "tax" amnesty, ... it seems there is very little in common between what people think is illegal and what actually is. So what kind of deterrent would introducing death penalty actually achieve ? The fall guys would fall harder ?
- sevenless 10y ago
  Even just Bernie Madoff and the Libor crooks being executed would probably have a socially beneficial effect. But of course, you could equally say there is no point in having any laws if they are not enforced.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  > So what kind of deterrent would introducing death penalty actually achieve? The point is that the severity of the punishment must match the severity of the crime. Crooked people getting off easy is a different example of the same issue. In both cases, the legitimacy of the government is eroded. Sometimes this looks like people ignoring even more laws or voting for candidates that ignore the existing checks and balances. In more volatile cases, you could see the rise of tribal forces (including mafia and gangs), more revenge and honor killings, a full-on coup, or any number of other things.
  - hx87 10y ago
    The legal cost of committing a crime is something like (severity of punishment * likelihood of punishment). I suspect that the latter term is far, far more important to the legitimacy of a government, since it indicates competence whereas the former indicates stringency or leniency, and people respect a competent but lenient government far more than a harsh but incompetent one. Besides, life in prison is a harsher punishment than death.
    - akiselev 10y ago
throwaway-hn123 10y ago
Lots of fraud in China where the death sentence is used. Your position is unsupported by facts and unsustainable.
tamana 10y ago
In the US, death penalty is popular but tolerated extrajudicial killing is not. In Middle East, extrajudicial killing is more common and tolerated.
- sevenless 10y ago
  Extrajudicial killing is very popular in the US, by drone (against Muslims), by gun owner (Stand Your Ground laws) and by cop (against minorities).

rmk2 10y ago

I would love to see some reliable statistics that prove support even anywhere near 50% in major European countries for a reintroduction of the death penalty, especially since your remark about "popular opinion" seems to suggest widespread public support for the death penalty that is subsequently ignored by politicians.

sevenless 10y ago
> I would love to see some reliable statistics that prove support even anywhere near 50% in major European countries for a reintroduction of the death penalty The UK public until very recently had decisive majority support for the reintroduction of the death penalty. Last year the NatCen British Social Attitudes Report found 48% of the 2,878 people it surveyed were in favour of capital punishment. This is the lowest figure since the survey began in 1983, when around 75% of people were in favour. Capital punishment for murder was abolished in Great Britain in 1965. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822
- rmk2 10y ago
  Thank you for the link. I guess I should never count out the Brits when it comes to these things! ;) The last reliable thing I found for Germany was an article that cited a rise to 25% after something or other in 2014, which is why I didn't quite expect those numbers. But in these days...
  - cm3 10y ago
    This isn't unique to the UK. Germany: http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article134799279/ http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article134799279/ USA: http://www.people-press.org/2015/04/16/less-support-for-death-penalty-especially-among-democrats/ http://www.people-press.org/2015/04/16/less-support-for-deat...
    - rmk2 10y ago
      It kind of is, though? The US don't count, they have the death penalty and are not a European country, but the UK, just like basically all other European countries (not just EU countries) excluding Belarus & Kazakhstan are members of the Council of Europe, where membership requires abolishing the death penalty. Also, the article for Germany showed, as I said, a rise to 25%, which is really rather far from anything approaching a majority, while the BBC article talked about a decline to 50%. So there is quite a difference.

gutnor 10y ago

> For example, serious white collar crime, political corruption If you look at the actual legal outcome of the financial crisis, Goldman Sachs cooking of Greece books, Euribor Fraud, revolving doors between government a sweet consulting jobs, Panama papers, recurrent "tax" amnesty, ... it seems there is very little in common between what people think is illegal and what actually is. So what kind of deterrent would introducing death penalty actually achieve ? The fall guys would fall harder ?

sevenless 10y ago
Even just Bernie Madoff and the Libor crooks being executed would probably have a socially beneficial effect. But of course, you could equally say there is no point in having any laws if they are not enforced.
humanrebar 10y ago
> So what kind of deterrent would introducing death penalty actually achieve? The point is that the severity of the punishment must match the severity of the crime. Crooked people getting off easy is a different example of the same issue. In both cases, the legitimacy of the government is eroded. Sometimes this looks like people ignoring even more laws or voting for candidates that ignore the existing checks and balances. In more volatile cases, you could see the rise of tribal forces (including mafia and gangs), more revenge and honor killings, a full-on coup, or any number of other things.
- hx87 10y ago
  The legal cost of committing a crime is something like (severity of punishment * likelihood of punishment). I suspect that the latter term is far, far more important to the legitimacy of a government, since it indicates competence whereas the former indicates stringency or leniency, and people respect a competent but lenient government far more than a harsh but incompetent one. Besides, life in prison is a harsher punishment than death.
  - akiselev 10y ago

throwaway-hn123 10y ago

Lots of fraud in China where the death sentence is used. Your position is unsupported by facts and unsustainable.

tamana 10y ago

In the US, death penalty is popular but tolerated extrajudicial killing is not. In Middle East, extrajudicial killing is more common and tolerated.

sevenless 10y ago
Extrajudicial killing is very popular in the US, by drone (against Muslims), by gun owner (Stand Your Ground laws) and by cop (against minorities).