6 ms·

One thing I'd like to understand is if some of the improvements like less discrimination of minorities and getting rid of the death penalty were purely for EU r

by cm3 10y ago

One thing I'd like to understand is if some of the improvements like less discrimination of minorities and getting rid of the death penalty were purely for EU relations and never supported by the AKP. Considering to reinstate the death penalty now is something I don't understand. Can someone who grew up and lives in Turkey explain? I recall that when they snatched the PKK leader they didn't terminate him, and he's jailed. So how come the death penalty is seriously considered an improvement in 2016?

denzil_correa 10y ago
> So how come the death penalty is seriously considered an improvement in 2016? This is primarily to make it difficult to oppose Erdogan. Earlier, an opposition would mean - jail time and potential release sometime in the future. Now, an opposition would mean - you have to sacrifice your life. Basically, the government has upped the stakes against dissent.
- cm3 10y ago
  But Erdogan can be subject to the same penalty, especially now that they're getting rid of political immunity.
  - denzil_correa 10y ago
    The difference being that Erdogan has all people who would announce such a penalty neatly tied up in his pockets.
  - brian_cloutier 10y ago
    I haven't been following very closely but don't think they got rid of political immunity in general. They only removed immunity from MPs, where Erdogan is the president. I'm less sure of this but I don't believe they lifted immunity for all MPs, I think the bill listed the exact MPs they were going to target.
  - varjag 10y ago
    It doesn't seem Erdogan has plans for retirement any time soon.
- toyg 10y ago
  My personal theory is that a death penalty applied selectively will be a sweet way to get rid of people who know too much (generals etc), while looking magnanimous for pardoning everyone else.
- Zenst 10y ago
  It's actions like this by Erogan that do tend to make him look like a dictator in action and indeed I ask myself if he was not an Islamic leader then would he have public support by the mass majority of Islamic people in that country and are the supporting him or their religion. As for me if you remove religion from the equation then you equally remove his support and that is very much the crux. More so when he has pushed thru more religious schools, curtailed and closed down free schools and very much done everything possible to drive things in the name of religion protectionism in many eye's. Which is and has been an issue with turkey in the past and indeed, seen the military rise up to curtail it as per the mandate they have. But this time, was very messy and over the years Erdogan has been making sure key people in the military are very much onboard with his religious party line and that in itself would explain the lacklustre mess of a coup. Previously they have had the military step in without any action and been civil, was this impossible in the current time I wonder and I'm tending to learn towards yes as I do not see any request from the military being listened too and indeed when the controlling political party is so embedded, near on impossible. After all when they label political opposition as terrorists and dissent and then somehow use this as a tool to remove political opposition and control education, is that going to end well democracy wise one seriously wonders.
humanrebar 10y ago
> So how come the death penalty is seriously considered an improvement in 2016? The best argument for the death penalty is about legitimacy of the government. Given the choice between revenge killings and the death penalty sentence in fair courts, we should choose the death penalty. Of course, this presumes fair trials, etc., so if the trials themselves are non-existent or unfair, the calculus changes. And if the impulse for violent revenge does not exist among a people, then the calculus changes as well. To be clear, the argument isn't that repaying murder with death is just. The argument is that to maintain a stable government, the government needs to respect popular opinion on the issue. All that being said, I don't have any particular insight into Erdogan's changes. But changing rules just after a traumatic event can lead to regrets and overreach, as the U.S. found post 9/11.
- sevenless 10y ago
  Popular opinion in many Western countries also supports the death penalty even where it's outlawed. In general, it's not difficult to find unpopular policy that governments pursue nonetheless, and this does not necessarily result in instability. Another pro-death penalty argument is its deterrent effect. While criminologists found that murder may not be deterred by the death penalty, we would expect other crimes requiring more deliberation and intelligence, to be deterred by the prospect of state killing. There is scope for innovative and beneficial use of the death penalty. For example, serious white collar crime, political corruption, and to enforce anti-discrimination laws.
  - rmk2 10y ago
    I would love to see some reliable statistics that prove support even anywhere near 50% in major European countries for a reintroduction of the death penalty, especially since your remark about "popular opinion" seems to suggest widespread public support for the death penalty that is subsequently ignored by politicians.
    - sevenless 10y ago
      > I would love to see some reliable statistics that prove support even anywhere near 50% in major European countries for a reintroduction of the death penalty The UK public until very recently had decisive majority support for the reintroduction of the death penalty. Last year the NatCen British Social Attitudes Report found 48% of the 2,878 people it surveyed were in favour of capital punishment. This is the lowest figure since the survey began in 1983, when around 75% of people were in favour. Capital punishment for murder was abolished in Great Britain in 1965. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822
jkot 10y ago
Death penalty would make it impossible to send illegal immigrants back to Turkey. Right now there is a deal with EU and Turkey has to accept them.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Technically, no, not unless asylum seekers themselves are threatened by the death penalty in Turkey which is not the case for migrants in transit. But of course politically it would make any deals with Erdogan more difficult. I'm waiting for reactions on how long you can sell cars made in Turkey in the EU market (e.g. Toyota, Renault).

by cm3 10y ago

denzil_correa 10y ago

> So how come the death penalty is seriously considered an improvement in 2016? This is primarily to make it difficult to oppose Erdogan. Earlier, an opposition would mean - jail time and potential release sometime in the future. Now, an opposition would mean - you have to sacrifice your life. Basically, the government has upped the stakes against dissent.

cm3 10y ago
But Erdogan can be subject to the same penalty, especially now that they're getting rid of political immunity.
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  The difference being that Erdogan has all people who would announce such a penalty neatly tied up in his pockets.
- brian_cloutier 10y ago
  I haven't been following very closely but don't think they got rid of political immunity in general. They only removed immunity from MPs, where Erdogan is the president. I'm less sure of this but I don't believe they lifted immunity for all MPs, I think the bill listed the exact MPs they were going to target.
- varjag 10y ago
  It doesn't seem Erdogan has plans for retirement any time soon.
toyg 10y ago
My personal theory is that a death penalty applied selectively will be a sweet way to get rid of people who know too much (generals etc), while looking magnanimous for pardoning everyone else.
Zenst 10y ago
It's actions like this by Erogan that do tend to make him look like a dictator in action and indeed I ask myself if he was not an Islamic leader then would he have public support by the mass majority of Islamic people in that country and are the supporting him or their religion. As for me if you remove religion from the equation then you equally remove his support and that is very much the crux. More so when he has pushed thru more religious schools, curtailed and closed down free schools and very much done everything possible to drive things in the name of religion protectionism in many eye's. Which is and has been an issue with turkey in the past and indeed, seen the military rise up to curtail it as per the mandate they have. But this time, was very messy and over the years Erdogan has been making sure key people in the military are very much onboard with his religious party line and that in itself would explain the lacklustre mess of a coup. Previously they have had the military step in without any action and been civil, was this impossible in the current time I wonder and I'm tending to learn towards yes as I do not see any request from the military being listened too and indeed when the controlling political party is so embedded, near on impossible. After all when they label political opposition as terrorists and dissent and then somehow use this as a tool to remove political opposition and control education, is that going to end well democracy wise one seriously wonders.

humanrebar 10y ago

> So how come the death penalty is seriously considered an improvement in 2016? The best argument for the death penalty is about legitimacy of the government. Given the choice between revenge killings and the death penalty sentence in fair courts, we should choose the death penalty. Of course, this presumes fair trials, etc., so if the trials themselves are non-existent or unfair, the calculus changes. And if the impulse for violent revenge does not exist among a people, then the calculus changes as well. To be clear, the argument isn't that repaying murder with death is just. The argument is that to maintain a stable government, the government needs to respect popular opinion on the issue. All that being said, I don't have any particular insight into Erdogan's changes. But changing rules just after a traumatic event can lead to regrets and overreach, as the U.S. found post 9/11.

sevenless 10y ago
Popular opinion in many Western countries also supports the death penalty even where it's outlawed. In general, it's not difficult to find unpopular policy that governments pursue nonetheless, and this does not necessarily result in instability. Another pro-death penalty argument is its deterrent effect. While criminologists found that murder may not be deterred by the death penalty, we would expect other crimes requiring more deliberation and intelligence, to be deterred by the prospect of state killing. There is scope for innovative and beneficial use of the death penalty. For example, serious white collar crime, political corruption, and to enforce anti-discrimination laws.
- rmk2 10y ago
  I would love to see some reliable statistics that prove support even anywhere near 50% in major European countries for a reintroduction of the death penalty, especially since your remark about "popular opinion" seems to suggest widespread public support for the death penalty that is subsequently ignored by politicians.
  - sevenless 10y ago
    > I would love to see some reliable statistics that prove support even anywhere near 50% in major European countries for a reintroduction of the death penalty The UK public until very recently had decisive majority support for the reintroduction of the death penalty. Last year the NatCen British Social Attitudes Report found 48% of the 2,878 people it surveyed were in favour of capital punishment. This is the lowest figure since the survey began in 1983, when around 75% of people were in favour. Capital punishment for murder was abolished in Great Britain in 1965. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822

jkot 10y ago

Death penalty would make it impossible to send illegal immigrants back to Turkey. Right now there is a deal with EU and Turkey has to accept them.

ptaipale 10y ago
Technically, no, not unless asylum seekers themselves are threatened by the death penalty in Turkey which is not the case for migrants in transit. But of course politically it would make any deals with Erdogan more difficult. I'm waiting for reactions on how long you can sell cars made in Turkey in the EU market (e.g. Toyota, Renault).