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FWIW I was comparing like for like in both cities. I compared Back Bay new construction to SoMA new construction. Fact is, your money does go further in SF. It

FWIW I was comparing like for like in both cities. I compared Back Bay new construction to SoMA new construction. Fact is, your money does go further in SF. It isn't intuitive because most of the housing stock in Boston is old, cramped, or needs significant repair...or all 3. But that doesn't come across when you compare aggregate sqft prices, it just looks like Boston is cheaper.

dpark 10y ago
> FWIW I was comparing like for like in both cities. I compared Back Bay new construction to SoMA new construction. Back Bay is the most expensive neighborhood in Boston. If you want to compare to SF, then SoMA is probably not the appropriate neighborhood. There are several neighborhoods in SF that cost multiples of Back Bay. * Back Bay: $863,200 * Pacific Heights: $1,877,500 * Noe Valley: $1,652,100 * Russian Hill: $1,593,600 If you actually want to compare "like for like", let's look at a really expensive SF neighborhood. * Presidio Heights: $4,911,300 > Fact is, your money does go further in SF. It isn't intuitive because most of the housing stock in Boston is old, cramped, or needs significant repair...or all 3. But that doesn't come across when you compare aggregate sqft prices, it just looks like Boston is cheaper. Isn't most of the housing in every major city old, cramped, and in need of repair? SF has plenty of old, cramped housing that costs a million dollars. You can't cherry-pick the absolute top-end of the Boston market and compare it to an average neighborhood in SF. With that logic, Seattle is more expensive than SF, too. Windermere price index is $1,239,600 vs $945,000 in SoMA. -- * http://www.zillow.com/back-bay-boston-ma/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/back-bay-boston-ma/home-values/ * http://www.zillow.com/pacific-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/pacific-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-... * http://www.zillow.com/noe-valley-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/noe-valley-san-francisco-ca/home-value... * http://www.zillow.com/russian-hill-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/russian-hill-san-francisco-ca/home-val... * http://www.zillow.com/presidio-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/presidio-heights-san-francisco-ca/home... * http://www.zillow.com/windermere-seattle-wa/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/windermere-seattle-wa/home-values/ * http://www.zillow.com/south-of-market-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/south-of-market-san-francisco-ca/home-...
- djb_hackernews 10y ago
  I think at this point it is fair to say you are being uncharitable in your interpretation of my point. I'll point out to things I take issue with your analysis: 1) The neighborhoods you are using to illustrate your point are tiny 2) I'll entertain this though. Looking at all properties currently for sale on redfin in Presidio Heights and comparing the per square foot price to Back Bay, they are about the same. In fact, the outliers are way more expensive in Boston. The most expensive in BB is $8.7M and gets you 2700 sqft. The most expensive in Presidio Heights is $11M and gets you 7000 sqft! For 25% more money you get 160% more living space in a private home with private outdoor space. This isn't a phenomenon isolated to the most expensive neighborhoods either. I used Back Bay and SoMA because I think they are comparable in that they are the most desirable neighborhoods for people that want to live in the city. I haven't spent much time in Presidio Heights but it feels more like Brookline, which is great but people don't live there if they want to be able to have 50 restaurants within stones throw and easy access to public transportation and even then Brookline is a difficult comparison for many reasons. I hope that you can understand that my argument isn't that Boston is more expensive than SF on purchase price terms but that your money actually goes further in SF on a per square foot and amenities basis. I know it's not intuitive when Zillow is telling you that SF is more expensive than Boston in pure dollar terms but they don't answer the question of what does that extra money buy you and the answer is extremely tangible benefits.
  - dpark 10y ago
    > 1) The neighborhoods you are using to illustrate your point are tiny Back Bay is also a tiny neighborhood. I don't know how much area each of these neighborhoods really covers, but Back Bay looks similar in size to Pacific Heights. > 2) I'll entertain this though. Looking at all properties currently for sale on redfin in Presidio Heights and comparing the per square foot price to Back Bay, they are about the same. As I mentioned in response to your other comment, comparing the most expensive areas is not actually very illuminating. Back Bay is not representative of Boston, just as Presidio is not actually representative of SF. Outliers are by definition not representative. Back Bay is also an absurdly small sample. There are only 7 properties listed. Multiple units in the same brand new buildings are effectively the same sample. As I noted, Presidio actually has no new construction properties for sale. This isn't an accurate picture of SF, though. It's not really even an accurate picture of Prisidio, because the sampling is not reliable (zero samples for new construction, and only 6 samples for all construction). > I hope that you can understand that my argument isn't that Boston is more expensive than SF on purchase price terms but that your money actually goes further in SF on a per square foot and amenities basis. I know it's not intuitive when Zillow is telling you that SF is more expensive than Boston in pure dollar terms but they don't answer the question of what does that extra money buy you and the answer is extremely tangible benefits. I understand you're trying to make that point, but you're wrong. You don't have to live in Back Bay to have city living and a nice place in Boston. You can buy a nice place and have have 50 restaurants nearby in many neighborhoods in Boston. Yes, Boston is expensive. No one is disputing that. It's not more expensive than SF. You are cherry-picking the most expensive neighborhood in all of Boston and comparing with an average neighborhood in SF. This is not like for like. Average for 2005+ construction in SoMA is $783,000. The average for 2005+ in SF as a whole is $1,199,000. So you're actually not even comparing with an average for SF. You're comparing with a cheaper neighborhood. (Mostly it's cheaper because the sample size is too small. If you drop the 2005+ filter, the pricing for SoMA is basically the same as SF as a whole. Again, evidence that tiny samples of small neighborhoods is not a fair way to compare.) https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/11212/CA/San-Francisco/SoMa/filter/sort=lo-price,min-year-built=2005 https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/11212/CA/San-Francisco/S... https://www.redfin.com/city/17151/CA/San-Francisco/filter/sort=lo-price,min-year-built=2005 https://www.redfin.com/city/17151/CA/San-Francisco/filter/so...

dpark 10y ago

> FWIW I was comparing like for like in both cities. I compared Back Bay new construction to SoMA new construction. Back Bay is the most expensive neighborhood in Boston. If you want to compare to SF, then SoMA is probably not the appropriate neighborhood. There are several neighborhoods in SF that cost multiples of Back Bay. * Back Bay: $863,200 * Pacific Heights: $1,877,500 * Noe Valley: $1,652,100 * Russian Hill: $1,593,600 If you actually want to compare "like for like", let's look at a really expensive SF neighborhood. * Presidio Heights: $4,911,300 > Fact is, your money does go further in SF. It isn't intuitive because most of the housing stock in Boston is old, cramped, or needs significant repair...or all 3. But that doesn't come across when you compare aggregate sqft prices, it just looks like Boston is cheaper. Isn't most of the housing in every major city old, cramped, and in need of repair? SF has plenty of old, cramped housing that costs a million dollars. You can't cherry-pick the absolute top-end of the Boston market and compare it to an average neighborhood in SF. With that logic, Seattle is more expensive than SF, too. Windermere price index is $1,239,600 vs $945,000 in SoMA. -- * http://www.zillow.com/back-bay-boston-ma/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/back-bay-boston-ma/home-values/ * http://www.zillow.com/pacific-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/pacific-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-... * http://www.zillow.com/noe-valley-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/noe-valley-san-francisco-ca/home-value... * http://www.zillow.com/russian-hill-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/russian-hill-san-francisco-ca/home-val... * http://www.zillow.com/presidio-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/presidio-heights-san-francisco-ca/home... * http://www.zillow.com/windermere-seattle-wa/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/windermere-seattle-wa/home-values/ * http://www.zillow.com/south-of-market-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/south-of-market-san-francisco-ca/home-...

djb_hackernews 10y ago
I think at this point it is fair to say you are being uncharitable in your interpretation of my point. I'll point out to things I take issue with your analysis: 1) The neighborhoods you are using to illustrate your point are tiny 2) I'll entertain this though. Looking at all properties currently for sale on redfin in Presidio Heights and comparing the per square foot price to Back Bay, they are about the same. In fact, the outliers are way more expensive in Boston. The most expensive in BB is $8.7M and gets you 2700 sqft. The most expensive in Presidio Heights is $11M and gets you 7000 sqft! For 25% more money you get 160% more living space in a private home with private outdoor space. This isn't a phenomenon isolated to the most expensive neighborhoods either. I used Back Bay and SoMA because I think they are comparable in that they are the most desirable neighborhoods for people that want to live in the city. I haven't spent much time in Presidio Heights but it feels more like Brookline, which is great but people don't live there if they want to be able to have 50 restaurants within stones throw and easy access to public transportation and even then Brookline is a difficult comparison for many reasons. I hope that you can understand that my argument isn't that Boston is more expensive than SF on purchase price terms but that your money actually goes further in SF on a per square foot and amenities basis. I know it's not intuitive when Zillow is telling you that SF is more expensive than Boston in pure dollar terms but they don't answer the question of what does that extra money buy you and the answer is extremely tangible benefits.
- dpark 10y ago
  > 1) The neighborhoods you are using to illustrate your point are tiny Back Bay is also a tiny neighborhood. I don't know how much area each of these neighborhoods really covers, but Back Bay looks similar in size to Pacific Heights. > 2) I'll entertain this though. Looking at all properties currently for sale on redfin in Presidio Heights and comparing the per square foot price to Back Bay, they are about the same. As I mentioned in response to your other comment, comparing the most expensive areas is not actually very illuminating. Back Bay is not representative of Boston, just as Presidio is not actually representative of SF. Outliers are by definition not representative. Back Bay is also an absurdly small sample. There are only 7 properties listed. Multiple units in the same brand new buildings are effectively the same sample. As I noted, Presidio actually has no new construction properties for sale. This isn't an accurate picture of SF, though. It's not really even an accurate picture of Prisidio, because the sampling is not reliable (zero samples for new construction, and only 6 samples for all construction). > I hope that you can understand that my argument isn't that Boston is more expensive than SF on purchase price terms but that your money actually goes further in SF on a per square foot and amenities basis. I know it's not intuitive when Zillow is telling you that SF is more expensive than Boston in pure dollar terms but they don't answer the question of what does that extra money buy you and the answer is extremely tangible benefits. I understand you're trying to make that point, but you're wrong. You don't have to live in Back Bay to have city living and a nice place in Boston. You can buy a nice place and have have 50 restaurants nearby in many neighborhoods in Boston. Yes, Boston is expensive. No one is disputing that. It's not more expensive than SF. You are cherry-picking the most expensive neighborhood in all of Boston and comparing with an average neighborhood in SF. This is not like for like. Average for 2005+ construction in SoMA is $783,000. The average for 2005+ in SF as a whole is $1,199,000. So you're actually not even comparing with an average for SF. You're comparing with a cheaper neighborhood. (Mostly it's cheaper because the sample size is too small. If you drop the 2005+ filter, the pricing for SoMA is basically the same as SF as a whole. Again, evidence that tiny samples of small neighborhoods is not a fair way to compare.) https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/11212/CA/San-Francisco/SoMa/filter/sort=lo-price,min-year-built=2005 https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/11212/CA/San-Francisco/S... https://www.redfin.com/city/17151/CA/San-Francisco/filter/sort=lo-price,min-year-built=2005 https://www.redfin.com/city/17151/CA/San-Francisco/filter/so...