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I keep running into this opinion, and as Turk who's a supporter of both secular and democratic rule, I feel I have to provide a counterpoint whenever it shows u

I keep running into this opinion, and as Turk who's a supporter of both secular and democratic rule, I feel I have to provide a counterpoint whenever it shows up. As usual, Turkish politics is all about nuance. First of all, a coup benefits no one - previous coups perhaps brought short term "stability", but at the cost of the lives of many people jailed and executed without due process, and a lack of respect for the rule of law. They were pyrrhic victories at best, and set the stage for the current mass polarization of "secularists" and "islamists" that is causing so much unrest and strife. Back in the day, it also was "communists" once. Coups are not good or right, regardless of who they're orchestrated by. Lest you think Lest you think the coups were mostly harmless, some examples of what happened were widespread (thousands) torture and arbitrary jailing, capital punishment, public hangings, repression of freedom of speech and books, purging of dissenting opinion from universities and government, special courts created to swiftly punish any opposition, repression of trade unions are just some of the results. Examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Turkish_military_memorandum#Aftermath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Turkish_military_memorand... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#Tribunals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta... ----- Having said that, to the actual point: The right-wing secular generals have been dismantled for the most part anyway. The prevailing theory is that the coup might have come from the supporters of Fettullah Gulen, who's for some reason seen as a harmless moderate in the West, but in Turkey he's not. It's never mentioned, for example, that his organization in Turkey runs "houses of light" (isik evleri) which serve as alternate housing for students who can't afford proper housing, where young children are gently groomed and selected for religious coercion and indoctrination, to then join the organization for life. They're given proper educations, jobs, business connections, in return for their service of course. Perhaps the Gulen schools in the US don't engage in that, probably because they know that won't fly there, and Gulen is relying on the US's protection against the Turkish government. Also not mentioned is that they worked with the Erdogan government when it was dismantling supporters of secularity from branches of government. What makes you think that these people would make for a better leadership than the current one? More about Gulen recently: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/thinking-gulen-is-a-peaceful-scholar-is-a-huge-mischaracterization.aspx?pageID=449&nID=102173&NewsCatID=548 http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/thinking-gulen-is-a-peacefu... and also http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/07/turkey-coup-attempt-profile-of-gulenist-soldier.html http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/07/turkey-cou... Don't get me wrong, I don't like Erdogan and his group one bit, but a coup would not have been better by any measure.

centicosm 10y ago
To further this point, this is a nice US-based analysis from the Middle East Quarterly in 2009 of Gulen and presumably the folks who participated in the coup seeing as the Kremelists (secularists) had already been removed by him). http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-ambition http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-ambition. It sounds like secular proponents of democracy in Turkey are up the proverbial creek no matter who prevailed.
agumonkey 10y ago
Someone on reddit told me the Gulen movement was comparable to Scientology in the eyes of the Turks. I didn't have more details, your comment is clearer. Thanks. What do you think about press being cleaned ? in the west it's seen negatively obviously, but is there other details that may explain, like in the Gulen movement case, the decision ? Is Erdogan feeding the people populist lies in order to rally them ? Some people have said he's starting to look like Germany pre WW2 politic style.
- makmanalp 10y ago
  > Gulen movement was comparable to Scientology Well, yeah - at least in the eyes of my social circle, but I doubt that he'd gather so much influence if everyone thought the same. > What do you think about press being cleaned ? in the west it's seen negatively obviously, but is there other details that may explain, like in the Gulen movement case, the decision ? Well, I have very mixed feelings. Someone made a point that a lot more people were complicit in the nazi atrocities than were indicted in the Nuremberg trials, and that makes sense. So the ones directly involved with the coup plot, yes, absolutely prosecute and punish them swiftly. The rest is trickier. Obviously Gulen and his supporters need to be dealt with. But how can we be sure that the trials will be fair and equitable, and not a mockery of the justice system, like the Sledgehammer case that Erdogan participated in (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) )? How does a government prosecute thousands upon thousands when its courts and prosecutors can barely hold under the current case load? How can we ensure that the tens of thousands accused are actually guilty? Of course a trial is done to test exactly this, but there is no right to a speedy trial in Turkey, and people routinely die in detention waiting for their court date. How many are genuinely suspected to be guilty rather than merely detractors who are being conveniently removed? They've done it before, and they'll do it again. This makes me extremely uncomfortable, because who's next? Especially with the press, I think it's important to preserve free and unrestricted speech. But it's also true that that ship long sailed under Erdogan, when news organizations would get fiscally investigated if they dissented loudly. So given that I don't think it'll improve, should the Gulenist reporters go to jail? Perhaps - if their only crime is to write articles supporting backwards views, then probably not. I'd rather them ousted and judged in the court of public opinion. So, mixed feelings and no good answers. > Is Erdogan feeding the people populist lies in order to rally them ? That's the kicker - he doesn't have to. This situation benefits him greatly, and fell conveniently on his lap. Some people of course accuse him of organizing the coup as a false flag, but I think that's too much of a conspiracy. All he'd have to do would be to notice it a tiny bit in advance, prepare for it, and allow it to happen. Or even just get lucky enough to narrowly escape, but then make use of the situation fully.

centicosm 10y ago

To further this point, this is a nice US-based analysis from the Middle East Quarterly in 2009 of Gulen and presumably the folks who participated in the coup seeing as the Kremelists (secularists) had already been removed by him). http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-ambition http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-ambition. It sounds like secular proponents of democracy in Turkey are up the proverbial creek no matter who prevailed.

agumonkey 10y ago

Someone on reddit told me the Gulen movement was comparable to Scientology in the eyes of the Turks. I didn't have more details, your comment is clearer. Thanks. What do you think about press being cleaned ? in the west it's seen negatively obviously, but is there other details that may explain, like in the Gulen movement case, the decision ? Is Erdogan feeding the people populist lies in order to rally them ? Some people have said he's starting to look like Germany pre WW2 politic style.

makmanalp 10y ago
> Gulen movement was comparable to Scientology Well, yeah - at least in the eyes of my social circle, but I doubt that he'd gather so much influence if everyone thought the same. > What do you think about press being cleaned ? in the west it's seen negatively obviously, but is there other details that may explain, like in the Gulen movement case, the decision ? Well, I have very mixed feelings. Someone made a point that a lot more people were complicit in the nazi atrocities than were indicted in the Nuremberg trials, and that makes sense. So the ones directly involved with the coup plot, yes, absolutely prosecute and punish them swiftly. The rest is trickier. Obviously Gulen and his supporters need to be dealt with. But how can we be sure that the trials will be fair and equitable, and not a mockery of the justice system, like the Sledgehammer case that Erdogan participated in (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) )? How does a government prosecute thousands upon thousands when its courts and prosecutors can barely hold under the current case load? How can we ensure that the tens of thousands accused are actually guilty? Of course a trial is done to test exactly this, but there is no right to a speedy trial in Turkey, and people routinely die in detention waiting for their court date. How many are genuinely suspected to be guilty rather than merely detractors who are being conveniently removed? They've done it before, and they'll do it again. This makes me extremely uncomfortable, because who's next? Especially with the press, I think it's important to preserve free and unrestricted speech. But it's also true that that ship long sailed under Erdogan, when news organizations would get fiscally investigated if they dissented loudly. So given that I don't think it'll improve, should the Gulenist reporters go to jail? Perhaps - if their only crime is to write articles supporting backwards views, then probably not. I'd rather them ousted and judged in the court of public opinion. So, mixed feelings and no good answers. > Is Erdogan feeding the people populist lies in order to rally them ? That's the kicker - he doesn't have to. This situation benefits him greatly, and fell conveniently on his lap. Some people of course accuse him of organizing the coup as a false flag, but I think that's too much of a conspiracy. All he'd have to do would be to notice it a tiny bit in advance, prepare for it, and allow it to happen. Or even just get lucky enough to narrowly escape, but then make use of the situation fully.