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Westminster parliament is responding to the will of the people as expressed through the referendum. We shall what form the response takes over the next few mont

Westminster parliament is responding to the will of the people as expressed through the referendum. We shall what form the response takes over the next few months (Autumn statement will be a significant marker - there will be some economic data based on actual events then not sentiment or opinion surveys) and I'm sure the various political groupings will have plenty to say. My point is that the debt transfer from private banks in predominantly Germany to the Greek state appears to have been a purely bureaucratic policy designed to prop up the Euro. Disclaimer: I actually voted remain on the balance of practicalities.

TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
There is no "will of the people" because Brexit was never a well-formed practical concept. As a matter of common sense, you can't have a referendum on a word with no meaning. Or rather you can, but the result is guaranteed to be a disaster. When there is no definition everyone agrees on, the only possible outcome is anger and disillusion because some very significant proportion of the population will be disappointed. And even if everyone in the UK agreed on a practical definition - which they very much don't - the EU might not agree to it in negotiations. The entire business was utterly dishonest. There's a huge difference between 'Do you want to leave the EU?" - which is a meaningless catch-all promise that covers all possible and impossible hopes - and "Do you want to leave the EU under these specific terms and conditions?"
- keithpeter 10y ago
  Yes I agree that we don't know what the people who ticked the 'leave' box actually voted for. The Westminster parliament(1) will now arrive at a series of policies to embody that choice and those policies will have to be negotiated through a long and complex process with the various EU institutions concerned. What emerges from that process will probably not fit anyone's conception of what they were voting for. As a (marginal, 5.5/10) remain voter, I would be inclined to point out that if you vote for radical change, radical change is what you get! I'm pretty sure that the Westminster government(1) will seek a mandate for their choice through a general election. (1) I'm referring to the Westminster parliament and government here as there are of course huge issues with the position of Scotland (which voted very heavily in favour of 'remain') and of Northern Ireland (which also voted less heavily in favour of remain, and which also has the added complexity arising from the Ulster Agreement, and the Ireland Act / Common Travel Area). The devolved assemblies in Scotland/NI will be fighting their corner and trying to see what they can get. Not sure about Gibraltar yet.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
    > I would be inclined to point out that if you vote for radical change, radical change is what you get! Yes, it's like voting for Trump, you have voted against "the system" and you will get ... something else. it will change, to something unknown. You might end up not liking it much.
- chriswarbo 10y ago
  I disagree; leaving the EU is a perfectly well-defined action/goal, which isn't particularly difficult to achieve (we'll be out of the EU at most 2 years after invoking article 50). The referendum result was in favour of leaving the EU, so that's what should happen in order to maintain any semblance of democracy. There is certainly a huge space of possible strategies to take, but that's always the case with any political action. The UK government is elected to take such decisions on our behalf, with various oversight/transparency/legal conditions attached, so that's what should happen. I don't see how this is any different from a goal like "increase Britain's GDP"; there are many ways to do it, huge levels of disagreement, the elected government will choose a strategy they think is best for themselves. The threat of regular elections is designed to align the government's selfish choice more closely with that of the people; universal education is designed to align the choice of the people more closely with the will of the people.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
    The difference is that with "increase Britain's GDP" there are several sensible choices that can get you there.
    - chriswarbo 10y ago
      Whilst I think Brexit is a bad idea (I voted remain), it's still possible to choose from amongst the 'least bad' exit strategies.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
        > it's still possible to choose from amongst the 'least bad' exit strategies. That's a fairly weak statement; it holds true when all of the options are varying degrees of terrible.

TheOtherHobbes 10y ago

There is no "will of the people" because Brexit was never a well-formed practical concept. As a matter of common sense, you can't have a referendum on a word with no meaning. Or rather you can, but the result is guaranteed to be a disaster. When there is no definition everyone agrees on, the only possible outcome is anger and disillusion because some very significant proportion of the population will be disappointed. And even if everyone in the UK agreed on a practical definition - which they very much don't - the EU might not agree to it in negotiations. The entire business was utterly dishonest. There's a huge difference between 'Do you want to leave the EU?" - which is a meaningless catch-all promise that covers all possible and impossible hopes - and "Do you want to leave the EU under these specific terms and conditions?"

keithpeter 10y ago
Yes I agree that we don't know what the people who ticked the 'leave' box actually voted for. The Westminster parliament(1) will now arrive at a series of policies to embody that choice and those policies will have to be negotiated through a long and complex process with the various EU institutions concerned. What emerges from that process will probably not fit anyone's conception of what they were voting for. As a (marginal, 5.5/10) remain voter, I would be inclined to point out that if you vote for radical change, radical change is what you get! I'm pretty sure that the Westminster government(1) will seek a mandate for their choice through a general election. (1) I'm referring to the Westminster parliament and government here as there are of course huge issues with the position of Scotland (which voted very heavily in favour of 'remain') and of Northern Ireland (which also voted less heavily in favour of remain, and which also has the added complexity arising from the Ulster Agreement, and the Ireland Act / Common Travel Area). The devolved assemblies in Scotland/NI will be fighting their corner and trying to see what they can get. Not sure about Gibraltar yet.
- SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
  > I would be inclined to point out that if you vote for radical change, radical change is what you get! Yes, it's like voting for Trump, you have voted against "the system" and you will get ... something else. it will change, to something unknown. You might end up not liking it much.
chriswarbo 10y ago
I disagree; leaving the EU is a perfectly well-defined action/goal, which isn't particularly difficult to achieve (we'll be out of the EU at most 2 years after invoking article 50). The referendum result was in favour of leaving the EU, so that's what should happen in order to maintain any semblance of democracy. There is certainly a huge space of possible strategies to take, but that's always the case with any political action. The UK government is elected to take such decisions on our behalf, with various oversight/transparency/legal conditions attached, so that's what should happen. I don't see how this is any different from a goal like "increase Britain's GDP"; there are many ways to do it, huge levels of disagreement, the elected government will choose a strategy they think is best for themselves. The threat of regular elections is designed to align the government's selfish choice more closely with that of the people; universal education is designed to align the choice of the people more closely with the will of the people.
- SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
  The difference is that with "increase Britain's GDP" there are several sensible choices that can get you there.
  - chriswarbo 10y ago
    Whilst I think Brexit is a bad idea (I voted remain), it's still possible to choose from amongst the 'least bad' exit strategies.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
      > it's still possible to choose from amongst the 'least bad' exit strategies. That's a fairly weak statement; it holds true when all of the options are varying degrees of terrible.