9 ms·

It's really too bad the coup there failed.

by FreakyT 10y ago

voidz 10y ago
For this comment to have any value, you should substantiate it, not leave it at this oneliner.
- chatmasta 10y ago
  Controversial liners have value when they kickstart a conversation (as this one did).
kweks 10y ago
You'll find yourself modded up and down over this. In a purely intellectual sense, it is definitely a shame that the coup failed. The turkish miliatry has a history of stepping in when a government no longer adheres to the pricipals of the republic, specifically in relation to secularism. By any metric, Tayyip's leadership is not secular. However, the turkish people (at least according to my friends) are are badly shaken after the two recent terrorist attacks - the coup represents more violence - regardless of its 'benevolance'. Turkey's admiration of Atatürk, the 'founding father' of modern Turkey is absolute: a benevolant dictator, he molded Turkey into a modern balanced country, uniting multiple social, ethnical and religous systems. It is widely held that Tayyip is doing exactly the opposite: peice by peice dismantling the social balance and fundamentals of Turkey. Naturally, his actions are liked by some - but his goal is to divide, as opposed to unite. Based upon this, the coup seems to be yet another tangile proof of the disquiet that has been installed under the Tayyip regieme. Essentially, the turkish people have had enough of bloodshed, division and disharmony.
- cm3 10y ago
  You and I may not like it, but the vast majority of the population supports the views and policies of the AKP and Erdogan. Democracy means the government can be controlled by unreasonable politicians, but it's not a dictatorship. If anything it's probably a bug in the political system in how a majority number of seats can control so much despite a considerable number of opposing seats in parliament. Switzerland has a direct democracy where, if the population were to vote for it, they would pass all kinds of crazy policies. This is in contrast to the UK where people now believe the referandum means the government has to embark on an EU-exit process. They don't, because the UK is not a direct democracy. If Front Nationale ruled France and pushed discriminatory policies, would we call Le Penne a dictator as well? Speaking of Ataturk, back when he introduced the reforms, some of it was unsupported by parts of the electorate, just as some of Edogan's policies are. Democracy means what the majority votes for wins, unless there's some rigging like in US, Russia, or probably Turkey as well. I mean, if votes can be rigged in the US and any and all objection is silenced by friends in the Supreme Court, then what do you expect from Russia or Turkey, really? Isn't the current situation in Turkey just another case of shock doctrine, as unfortunately happens annually all over the globe?
  - rayiner 10y ago
    > I mean, if votes can be rigged in the US and any and all objection is silenced by friends in the Supreme Court, then what do you expect from Russia or Turkey, really? What vote rigging are you talking about?
    - cm3 10y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_election_recount https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_election_recount Edit: Is rigging the wrong term?
      - rayiner 10y ago
        There is a lot of misinformation about what happened in the 2000 election and about the Florida recount. In the 2000 election, the close result in Florida triggered an automatic machine recount under Florida law. The machine recount still had Bush leading. So Gore sought hand recounts in only four heavily-Democratic counties. The Florida Supreme Court then ordered statewide hand recounting only of "undervotes" (ballots where the machine failed to detect any vote for any candidate). But the recount process itself was a total disaster: http://www.factcheck.org/2008/01/the-florida-recount-of-2000 http://www.factcheck.org/2008/01/the-florida-recount-of-2000. The various counties doing the recounts were applying totally different standards to counting the votes. In a 7-2 decision,[1] the Supreme Court held that the Florida recount violated the Constitution's "Equal Protection Clause," which requires the law to be applied equally to all people. It found that recounting only some ballots and recounting them using different standards in different places resulted in unequal application of the law based on where people voted. In my opinion,[2] the Supreme Court got it right. The right thing to do would have been to stop after the machine recount. There is no way a hand recount was going to be a more fair and trustworthy process than the machine recount. The machine might not properly count what everyone intended to vote (e.g. because they didn't punch out the chad on the voting card all the way), but machine error is going to be random. Hand counting, on the other hand, will be biased toward favored candidates. Moreover, a subsequent $1 million study commissioned by news organizations found that Bush still would've won under most recount scenarios. [1] The oft-reported "5-4" decision in Bush v. Gore was not about whether the recount was valid. 7 of 9 Justices agreed it was not. It was about whether Florida still had time to do a proper state-wide recount within the statutory deadline. [2] I was too young to vote in 2000, but at the time I supported Gore. I too was infuriated about the 2000 election until I actually studied Bush v. Gore in law school.
- mda 10y ago
  So essentially you say "Tayyip's leadership is not secular, military is secular, coup needed, shame it failed. Tayyip is a baddy, Ataturk was a benevolent dictator, united everyone, all were nice and dandy. But not anymore." Excellent, super analysis of recent Turkish history. I am speechless.
- vowelless 10y ago
  > The turkish miliatry has a history of stepping in when a government no longer adheres to the pricipals of the republic, specifically in relation to secularism. Is there any indication that the coup of to try to restore secularism, and not instigated by Gulen and his followers? I ask this sincerely because a couple of my very educated Turkish friends in the west do think Gulen was behind the coup attempt in some form or the other.
  - gorkemyurt 10y ago
    Zero indication at all. None. Exactly the opposite actually. Not sure about the exact numbers but a lot of the the generals that were promoted after the Ergenekon and Balyoz cases were behind the coup. A lot of secular Generals were put to jail after those cases and West didn't seem to care at all.
    - cm3 10y ago
      Are you saying Erdogan replaced pro-Ataturk generals with pro-Islam generals, and that led to more Gulen followers with control of troops than there were before?
      - gorkemyurt 10y ago
        Yep exactly ! Erdogan and Gulen were close allies until 3 years ago. A stadium full of Gulen supporters cheering for Erdogan, just 4 years ago.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bP7r0U8mfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bP7r0U8mfg Erdogan's speech; "I wish Gulen was here with us today"
        afsina 10y ago
        Actually it was not a friendship. Perhaps a mutually beneficial partnership. And things went downhill probably much before 2012, regardless of political speeches.
      - afsina 10y ago
        Erdoğan and public was convinced with the coup plan in 2009 ( who knows probably they were plotting for real and gülen supporters in the army exposed it) and Gülen probably have put some (many?) of his supporters among replacements. They are extremely secretive so I doubt anybody got suspicious. I read some of the captive coup army officials statements, they are quite shocking.
- mercurial 10y ago
  > You'll find yourself modded up and down over this. In a purely intellectual sense, it is definitely a shame that the coup failed. The turkish miliatry has a history of stepping in when a government no longer adheres to the pricipals of the republic, specifically in relation to secularism. Preferably after a bloody purge. It has a distinguished history of organizing death squads, torture, murder of political opponents, and probably a few false flag operations, not to mention a cozy relationship with business interests. This, obviously, doesn't make Erdogan into a nice guy, but the rosy picture many people outside of Turkey seem to have of these good old secular generals risking it all to uphold their moral values isn't, IMHO, supported by facts. > a benevolant dictator I think the Kurds in particular will take issue with such a description.
selimthegrim 10y ago
If they were putting the held-hostage chief of staff on the phone with Gulen, does that sound secular to you?
- cm3 10y ago
  I may have missed this. Can you provide a source?
  - tim333 10y ago
    It's alleged: >Chief of Staff General Hulusi Akar, testifying as a plaintiff to Ankara prosecutors, said while he was held hostage by pro-coup soldiers, Gen. Hakan Evrim, the commander of a main jet base, asked him to speak with Gulen. >"Hakan Evrim said they could put me on phone with Fethullah Gulen, who he described as their 'opinion leader'," Akar said. >"But I refused the offer at once." http://www.trtworld.com/turkey/turkish-top-general-was-told-to-talk-with-gulen-amid-coup-151182 http://www.trtworld.com/turkey/turkish-top-general-was-told-...
    - tim333 10y ago
      Some funny business relating to that, for fans of the false flag hypothesis: One of the main coup guys having a go at Akar was Gen. Mehmet Dişli who "initially ordered Akar to sign the declaration and read it out to the Turkish public. Facing Akar’s firm rejection, Dişli held Akar at gunpoint and attempted to physically force him to comply with the order by cinching a belt around his neck, the sources claimed. " http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/chief-of-staff-held-at-gunpoint-ordered-to-read-coup-declaration-sources.aspx?pageID=238&nID=101743&NewsCatID=341 http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/chief-of-staff-held-at-gunp... Mehmet Dişli "happens to be the brother of Saban Dişli, a former vice president of the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP). Saban is a close confidant of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan." http://www.gagrule.net/turkey-the-alleged-coup-leaders-two-star-general-close-confidant-of-erdogan/ http://www.gagrule.net/turkey-the-alleged-coup-leaders-two-s... Some more on that stuff here https://www.quora.com/Who-is-behind-the-coup-attempt-in-Turkey-July-2016 https://www.quora.com/Who-is-behind-the-coup-attempt-in-Turk...
makmanalp 10y ago
I keep running into this opinion, and as Turk who's a supporter of both secular and democratic rule, I feel I have to provide a counterpoint whenever it shows up. As usual, Turkish politics is all about nuance. First of all, a coup benefits no one - previous coups perhaps brought short term "stability", but at the cost of the lives of many people jailed and executed without due process, and a lack of respect for the rule of law. They were pyrrhic victories at best, and set the stage for the current mass polarization of "secularists" and "islamists" that is causing so much unrest and strife. Back in the day, it also was "communists" once. Coups are not good or right, regardless of who they're orchestrated by. Lest you think Lest you think the coups were mostly harmless, some examples of what happened were widespread (thousands) torture and arbitrary jailing, capital punishment, public hangings, repression of freedom of speech and books, purging of dissenting opinion from universities and government, special courts created to swiftly punish any opposition, repression of trade unions are just some of the results. Examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Turkish_military_memorandum#Aftermath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Turkish_military_memorand... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#Tribunals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta... ----- Having said that, to the actual point: The right-wing secular generals have been dismantled for the most part anyway. The prevailing theory is that the coup might have come from the supporters of Fettullah Gulen, who's for some reason seen as a harmless moderate in the West, but in Turkey he's not. It's never mentioned, for example, that his organization in Turkey runs "houses of light" (isik evleri) which serve as alternate housing for students who can't afford proper housing, where young children are gently groomed and selected for religious coercion and indoctrination, to then join the organization for life. They're given proper educations, jobs, business connections, in return for their service of course. Perhaps the Gulen schools in the US don't engage in that, probably because they know that won't fly there, and Gulen is relying on the US's protection against the Turkish government. Also not mentioned is that they worked with the Erdogan government when it was dismantling supporters of secularity from branches of government. What makes you think that these people would make for a better leadership than the current one? More about Gulen recently: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/thinking-gulen-is-a-peaceful-scholar-is-a-huge-mischaracterization.aspx?pageID=449&nID=102173&NewsCatID=548 http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/thinking-gulen-is-a-peacefu... and also http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/07/turkey-coup-attempt-profile-of-gulenist-soldier.html http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/07/turkey-cou... Don't get me wrong, I don't like Erdogan and his group one bit, but a coup would not have been better by any measure.
cm3 10y ago
One thing to keep in mind is that Turkey has had at least 4 successful military coups in the last century, so the people are traumatized in that regard and you won't find many who would support any military-led coup at all, even if it were to remove a full-on dictator.
- sliverstorm 10y ago
  Not to mention, if the first 4 coups didn't work out in the end, what's to make people feel like the 5th coup will wind up better.
- mda 10y ago
  Turkey had 2.5 successfull military coups. 1960 and 1980: Old school military colonel - generals. They thought they should show these puny civilians who the real boss was, hanged a few people including a prime minister, oppressed free speech and media. 1998 was different, it was a half coup, they disbanded government, created a huge vacuum of authority, caused the biggest economical depression in Turkish history, oppressed majority of people (Those pesky conservative people, why do they want to go to university?) 2016: They failed miserably regardless of their motivation. I hope this would be a lesson to them, Turks had enough of this crap.
  - cm3 10y ago
    You may be right and just for the record here's what I've included in the count: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Turkish_coup_d'%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Turkish_coup_d'%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Turkish_military_memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Turkish_military_memorand... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d'%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d'%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Turkish_military_memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Turkish_military_memorand...
deleted 10y ago
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buremba 10y ago
The people behind this coup is also islamists and most of the people in Turkey support Erdoğan so I doubt it. A civil war is quite possible in that scenario.
mda 10y ago
Really? Why? What do you think would happen if it was successful?
Grishnakh 10y ago
No, it's not. There never was a coup. What kind of coup has a fighter jet with the President's plane in its sights, and then doesn't shoot it down, and instead allows it to land? What kind of coup doesn't bother actually capturing the leaders, and instead goes and captures a bridge? What kind of coup ignores the leaders but then shoots at protesters from helicopters? What kind of coup shoots at an empty parliament building? If this was a coup, it was the most incompetent coup ever conducted in the history of the world. Turkey has had a bunch of coups over the years, and none of them looked anything like this one. When you want to conduct a coup, you do it in the middle of the night and you capture the nation's top political leadership first and foremost, and you definitely do not harm civilians.
- gorkemyurt 10y ago
  Best explanation I have about what happened is this; The attempt was real. It was actually planned pretty well. Their plans were exposed. They panicked, couldn't really follow through with all their plans. Generals that weren't part of the coup took the chain of command pretty fast to stop the attempt. 1) Parliament building was not empty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_Qt55kJVk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_Qt55kJVk 2) Apparently there were other jets that were actually following Erdogan's plane 3) They kidnapped almost all high ranked military personnel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--bCuv6G5I0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--bCuv6G5I0. The ones that escaped actually took back the chain of command and was able to stop the attempt. 4) Does anything look staged in these videos; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTEbX7kvZ6E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTEbX7kvZ6E or this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkfIbfnZt_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkfIbfnZt_Y. Some of these people on the floor are 50-60 year old generals. What is their role in your scenario?
  - tim333 10y ago
    I'm thinking maybe it was a hybrid of false flag and genuine - Erdogan fearing a coup gets some of his general friends to try to foment a coup. Most of the followers think it's for real. Then everyone gets arrested. Erdogan's friends do a year in jail and then are released, the others treated harshly. A possible friendly general is Mehmet Dişli, Erdogan's friends brother. https://www.commentarymagazine.com/foreign-policy/middle-east/turkey/turkey-coup-leaders-erdogan-connections/ https://www.commentarymagazine.com/foreign-policy/middle-eas...
deleted 10y ago
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pinpinini 10y ago
Why? Do you want to have these coups in your own country every 10 years, destroying economy, killing people and setting back the progress another 20 years?

It's really too bad the coup there failed.

by FreakyT 10y ago

It's really too bad the coup there failed.

voidz 10y ago

For this comment to have any value, you should substantiate it, not leave it at this oneliner.

chatmasta 10y ago
Controversial liners have value when they kickstart a conversation (as this one did).

kweks 10y ago

You'll find yourself modded up and down over this. In a purely intellectual sense, it is definitely a shame that the coup failed. The turkish miliatry has a history of stepping in when a government no longer adheres to the pricipals of the republic, specifically in relation to secularism. By any metric, Tayyip's leadership is not secular. However, the turkish people (at least according to my friends) are are badly shaken after the two recent terrorist attacks - the coup represents more violence - regardless of its 'benevolance'. Turkey's admiration of Atatürk, the 'founding father' of modern Turkey is absolute: a benevolant dictator, he molded Turkey into a modern balanced country, uniting multiple social, ethnical and religous systems. It is widely held that Tayyip is doing exactly the opposite: peice by peice dismantling the social balance and fundamentals of Turkey. Naturally, his actions are liked by some - but his goal is to divide, as opposed to unite. Based upon this, the coup seems to be yet another tangile proof of the disquiet that has been installed under the Tayyip regieme. Essentially, the turkish people have had enough of bloodshed, division and disharmony.

cm3 10y ago
You and I may not like it, but the vast majority of the population supports the views and policies of the AKP and Erdogan. Democracy means the government can be controlled by unreasonable politicians, but it's not a dictatorship. If anything it's probably a bug in the political system in how a majority number of seats can control so much despite a considerable number of opposing seats in parliament. Switzerland has a direct democracy where, if the population were to vote for it, they would pass all kinds of crazy policies. This is in contrast to the UK where people now believe the referandum means the government has to embark on an EU-exit process. They don't, because the UK is not a direct democracy. If Front Nationale ruled France and pushed discriminatory policies, would we call Le Penne a dictator as well? Speaking of Ataturk, back when he introduced the reforms, some of it was unsupported by parts of the electorate, just as some of Edogan's policies are. Democracy means what the majority votes for wins, unless there's some rigging like in US, Russia, or probably Turkey as well. I mean, if votes can be rigged in the US and any and all objection is silenced by friends in the Supreme Court, then what do you expect from Russia or Turkey, really? Isn't the current situation in Turkey just another case of shock doctrine, as unfortunately happens annually all over the globe?
- rayiner 10y ago
  > I mean, if votes can be rigged in the US and any and all objection is silenced by friends in the Supreme Court, then what do you expect from Russia or Turkey, really? What vote rigging are you talking about?
  - cm3 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_election_recount https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_election_recount Edit: Is rigging the wrong term?
    - rayiner 10y ago
      There is a lot of misinformation about what happened in the 2000 election and about the Florida recount. In the 2000 election, the close result in Florida triggered an automatic machine recount under Florida law. The machine recount still had Bush leading. So Gore sought hand recounts in only four heavily-Democratic counties. The Florida Supreme Court then ordered statewide hand recounting only of "undervotes" (ballots where the machine failed to detect any vote for any candidate). But the recount process itself was a total disaster: http://www.factcheck.org/2008/01/the-florida-recount-of-2000 http://www.factcheck.org/2008/01/the-florida-recount-of-2000. The various counties doing the recounts were applying totally different standards to counting the votes. In a 7-2 decision,[1] the Supreme Court held that the Florida recount violated the Constitution's "Equal Protection Clause," which requires the law to be applied equally to all people. It found that recounting only some ballots and recounting them using different standards in different places resulted in unequal application of the law based on where people voted. In my opinion,[2] the Supreme Court got it right. The right thing to do would have been to stop after the machine recount. There is no way a hand recount was going to be a more fair and trustworthy process than the machine recount. The machine might not properly count what everyone intended to vote (e.g. because they didn't punch out the chad on the voting card all the way), but machine error is going to be random. Hand counting, on the other hand, will be biased toward favored candidates. Moreover, a subsequent $1 million study commissioned by news organizations found that Bush still would've won under most recount scenarios. [1] The oft-reported "5-4" decision in Bush v. Gore was not about whether the recount was valid. 7 of 9 Justices agreed it was not. It was about whether Florida still had time to do a proper state-wide recount within the statutory deadline. [2] I was too young to vote in 2000, but at the time I supported Gore. I too was infuriated about the 2000 election until I actually studied Bush v. Gore in law school.
mda 10y ago
So essentially you say "Tayyip's leadership is not secular, military is secular, coup needed, shame it failed. Tayyip is a baddy, Ataturk was a benevolent dictator, united everyone, all were nice and dandy. But not anymore." Excellent, super analysis of recent Turkish history. I am speechless.
vowelless 10y ago
> The turkish miliatry has a history of stepping in when a government no longer adheres to the pricipals of the republic, specifically in relation to secularism. Is there any indication that the coup of to try to restore secularism, and not instigated by Gulen and his followers? I ask this sincerely because a couple of my very educated Turkish friends in the west do think Gulen was behind the coup attempt in some form or the other.
- gorkemyurt 10y ago
  Zero indication at all. None. Exactly the opposite actually. Not sure about the exact numbers but a lot of the the generals that were promoted after the Ergenekon and Balyoz cases were behind the coup. A lot of secular Generals were put to jail after those cases and West didn't seem to care at all.
  - cm3 10y ago
    Are you saying Erdogan replaced pro-Ataturk generals with pro-Islam generals, and that led to more Gulen followers with control of troops than there were before?
    - gorkemyurt 10y ago
      Yep exactly ! Erdogan and Gulen were close allies until 3 years ago. A stadium full of Gulen supporters cheering for Erdogan, just 4 years ago.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bP7r0U8mfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bP7r0U8mfg Erdogan's speech; "I wish Gulen was here with us today"
      - afsina 10y ago
        Actually it was not a friendship. Perhaps a mutually beneficial partnership. And things went downhill probably much before 2012, regardless of political speeches.
    - afsina 10y ago
      Erdoğan and public was convinced with the coup plan in 2009 ( who knows probably they were plotting for real and gülen supporters in the army exposed it) and Gülen probably have put some (many?) of his supporters among replacements. They are extremely secretive so I doubt anybody got suspicious. I read some of the captive coup army officials statements, they are quite shocking.
mercurial 10y ago
> You'll find yourself modded up and down over this. In a purely intellectual sense, it is definitely a shame that the coup failed. The turkish miliatry has a history of stepping in when a government no longer adheres to the pricipals of the republic, specifically in relation to secularism. Preferably after a bloody purge. It has a distinguished history of organizing death squads, torture, murder of political opponents, and probably a few false flag operations, not to mention a cozy relationship with business interests. This, obviously, doesn't make Erdogan into a nice guy, but the rosy picture many people outside of Turkey seem to have of these good old secular generals risking it all to uphold their moral values isn't, IMHO, supported by facts. > a benevolant dictator I think the Kurds in particular will take issue with such a description.

selimthegrim 10y ago

If they were putting the held-hostage chief of staff on the phone with Gulen, does that sound secular to you?

cm3 10y ago
I may have missed this. Can you provide a source?
- tim333 10y ago
  It's alleged: >Chief of Staff General Hulusi Akar, testifying as a plaintiff to Ankara prosecutors, said while he was held hostage by pro-coup soldiers, Gen. Hakan Evrim, the commander of a main jet base, asked him to speak with Gulen. >"Hakan Evrim said they could put me on phone with Fethullah Gulen, who he described as their 'opinion leader'," Akar said. >"But I refused the offer at once." http://www.trtworld.com/turkey/turkish-top-general-was-told-to-talk-with-gulen-amid-coup-151182 http://www.trtworld.com/turkey/turkish-top-general-was-told-...
  - tim333 10y ago
    Some funny business relating to that, for fans of the false flag hypothesis: One of the main coup guys having a go at Akar was Gen. Mehmet Dişli who "initially ordered Akar to sign the declaration and read it out to the Turkish public. Facing Akar’s firm rejection, Dişli held Akar at gunpoint and attempted to physically force him to comply with the order by cinching a belt around his neck, the sources claimed. " http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/chief-of-staff-held-at-gunpoint-ordered-to-read-coup-declaration-sources.aspx?pageID=238&nID=101743&NewsCatID=341 http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/chief-of-staff-held-at-gunp... Mehmet Dişli "happens to be the brother of Saban Dişli, a former vice president of the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP). Saban is a close confidant of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan." http://www.gagrule.net/turkey-the-alleged-coup-leaders-two-star-general-close-confidant-of-erdogan/ http://www.gagrule.net/turkey-the-alleged-coup-leaders-two-s... Some more on that stuff here https://www.quora.com/Who-is-behind-the-coup-attempt-in-Turkey-July-2016 https://www.quora.com/Who-is-behind-the-coup-attempt-in-Turk...

makmanalp 10y ago

I keep running into this opinion, and as Turk who's a supporter of both secular and democratic rule, I feel I have to provide a counterpoint whenever it shows up. As usual, Turkish politics is all about nuance. First of all, a coup benefits no one - previous coups perhaps brought short term "stability", but at the cost of the lives of many people jailed and executed without due process, and a lack of respect for the rule of law. They were pyrrhic victories at best, and set the stage for the current mass polarization of "secularists" and "islamists" that is causing so much unrest and strife. Back in the day, it also was "communists" once. Coups are not good or right, regardless of who they're orchestrated by. Lest you think Lest you think the coups were mostly harmless, some examples of what happened were widespread (thousands) torture and arbitrary jailing, capital punishment, public hangings, repression of freedom of speech and books, purging of dissenting opinion from universities and government, special courts created to swiftly punish any opposition, repression of trade unions are just some of the results. Examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Turkish_military_memorandum#Aftermath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Turkish_military_memorand... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#Tribunals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta... ----- Having said that, to the actual point: The right-wing secular generals have been dismantled for the most part anyway. The prevailing theory is that the coup might have come from the supporters of Fettullah Gulen, who's for some reason seen as a harmless moderate in the West, but in Turkey he's not. It's never mentioned, for example, that his organization in Turkey runs "houses of light" (isik evleri) which serve as alternate housing for students who can't afford proper housing, where young children are gently groomed and selected for religious coercion and indoctrination, to then join the organization for life. They're given proper educations, jobs, business connections, in return for their service of course. Perhaps the Gulen schools in the US don't engage in that, probably because they know that won't fly there, and Gulen is relying on the US's protection against the Turkish government. Also not mentioned is that they worked with the Erdogan government when it was dismantling supporters of secularity from branches of government. What makes you think that these people would make for a better leadership than the current one? More about Gulen recently: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/thinking-gulen-is-a-peaceful-scholar-is-a-huge-mischaracterization.aspx?pageID=449&nID=102173&NewsCatID=548 http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/thinking-gulen-is-a-peacefu... and also http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/07/turkey-coup-attempt-profile-of-gulenist-soldier.html http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/07/turkey-cou... Don't get me wrong, I don't like Erdogan and his group one bit, but a coup would not have been better by any measure.

cm3 10y ago

One thing to keep in mind is that Turkey has had at least 4 successful military coups in the last century, so the people are traumatized in that regard and you won't find many who would support any military-led coup at all, even if it were to remove a full-on dictator.

sliverstorm 10y ago
Not to mention, if the first 4 coups didn't work out in the end, what's to make people feel like the 5th coup will wind up better.
mda 10y ago
Turkey had 2.5 successfull military coups. 1960 and 1980: Old school military colonel - generals. They thought they should show these puny civilians who the real boss was, hanged a few people including a prime minister, oppressed free speech and media. 1998 was different, it was a half coup, they disbanded government, created a huge vacuum of authority, caused the biggest economical depression in Turkish history, oppressed majority of people (Those pesky conservative people, why do they want to go to university?) 2016: They failed miserably regardless of their motivation. I hope this would be a lesson to them, Turks had enough of this crap.
- cm3 10y ago
  You may be right and just for the record here's what I've included in the count: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Turkish_coup_d'%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Turkish_coup_d'%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Turkish_military_memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Turkish_military_memorand... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d'%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d'%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Turkish_military_memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Turkish_military_memorand...

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buremba 10y ago

The people behind this coup is also islamists and most of the people in Turkey support Erdoğan so I doubt it. A civil war is quite possible in that scenario.

mda 10y ago

Really? Why? What do you think would happen if it was successful?

Grishnakh 10y ago

No, it's not. There never was a coup. What kind of coup has a fighter jet with the President's plane in its sights, and then doesn't shoot it down, and instead allows it to land? What kind of coup doesn't bother actually capturing the leaders, and instead goes and captures a bridge? What kind of coup ignores the leaders but then shoots at protesters from helicopters? What kind of coup shoots at an empty parliament building? If this was a coup, it was the most incompetent coup ever conducted in the history of the world. Turkey has had a bunch of coups over the years, and none of them looked anything like this one. When you want to conduct a coup, you do it in the middle of the night and you capture the nation's top political leadership first and foremost, and you definitely do not harm civilians.

gorkemyurt 10y ago
Best explanation I have about what happened is this; The attempt was real. It was actually planned pretty well. Their plans were exposed. They panicked, couldn't really follow through with all their plans. Generals that weren't part of the coup took the chain of command pretty fast to stop the attempt. 1) Parliament building was not empty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_Qt55kJVk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_Qt55kJVk 2) Apparently there were other jets that were actually following Erdogan's plane 3) They kidnapped almost all high ranked military personnel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--bCuv6G5I0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--bCuv6G5I0. The ones that escaped actually took back the chain of command and was able to stop the attempt. 4) Does anything look staged in these videos; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTEbX7kvZ6E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTEbX7kvZ6E or this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkfIbfnZt_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkfIbfnZt_Y. Some of these people on the floor are 50-60 year old generals. What is their role in your scenario?
- tim333 10y ago
  I'm thinking maybe it was a hybrid of false flag and genuine - Erdogan fearing a coup gets some of his general friends to try to foment a coup. Most of the followers think it's for real. Then everyone gets arrested. Erdogan's friends do a year in jail and then are released, the others treated harshly. A possible friendly general is Mehmet Dişli, Erdogan's friends brother. https://www.commentarymagazine.com/foreign-policy/middle-east/turkey/turkey-coup-leaders-erdogan-connections/ https://www.commentarymagazine.com/foreign-policy/middle-eas...

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pinpinini 10y ago

Why? Do you want to have these coups in your own country every 10 years, destroying economy, killing people and setting back the progress another 20 years?