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I was wondering why men tie their identity to employment so much. Is it because society expects them to be providers, and ridicules men who don't ?

by MollyR 10y ago

ethanbond 10y ago
I'd assume so. As much as HN likes to ridicule the notion of "the patriarchy," this is a component of it that's awfully harmful to men.
- karmajunkie 10y ago
  Yes absolutely. Sexism harms everyone.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  There is a vast difference between ridiculing something and not accepting it on faith solely because very passionate people make assertions about it.
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    Sure, but that's my point. I think a lot of men on here have probably felt this effect. If it's not from "the patriarchy," or something similar by a different name, then what is it from? You don't have to think that, say, women's fashion changes faster than men's fashion because "the patriarchy!", but it takes some serious aloofness not to see that male dominance in society trickles down to some very strange places indeed. As an example: that a man's employment status is the largest factor in his marital success.
    - klipt 10y ago
      I think plenty of people agree that Traditional Gender Roles cause problems for men and women who don't conform to them. But not everyone agrees that Traditional Genders Roles should be called "the patriarchy", because that has connotations that men (even the men being hurt by Traditional Gender Roles) are in control, which feels like blaming the victim.
    - DefaultUserHN 10y ago
      >...that a man's employment status is the largest factor in his marital success. Well, if he can't provide for his kids, then what's the point of staying married to him? For love? Love can't feed your starving kids. Might as well go remarry some other dude who are competent enough to provide for your kids. Unless of course, you want to take the easy route and rely on government food stamps. Or, be those like stressed out single mom who has to do everything by herself, single handily doing BOTH the jobs of a man and a woman.
- Snargorf 10y ago
  That's not "the patriarchy", it's just traditional gender norms. There is a very big difference.
- home_boi 10y ago
  This idea really has nothing to do with the concept of patriarchy. It would only be one idea out of many that patriarchy represents.
- tomp 10y ago
  HN ridicules the notion of patriarchy because the word itself implies it's somehow men's fault. Which it isn't. Social toles are enforced by most of the society, so we might as well call it "matriarchy", but that would piss feminists off, so we don't.
  - gizmo 10y ago
    It implies no such thing. "patriarchy" is a descriptive term in social science and it has nothing to do with fault or blame. We don't choose the society we're born into and obviously we're not responsible for those things that are out of our control. We should of course be held accountable for the choices we make, especially when those choices hurt others.
    - tomp 10y ago
      It's also a wrong term. "Patriarchy" means a system where women are owned by men (husbands, fathers, brothers), cannot own property, etc. The only reason why feminists chose this term to describe the current social order (which is clearly not a patriarchy in the literal sense) is to elicit negative emotions.
      - ethanbond 10y ago
        Uh, no it doesn't. Patriarchal societies are ones where elder males are the heads of households (generally true) and descent (such as surnames) are passed through the males (generally true). There are matriarchal societies – including many Native American ones. Those are called matriarchal societies. They're notably different from what we have. I think they're less common today than they ever have been, but patriarchal societies are also "less patriarchal," i.e. males don't own females, as you stated. Feminists, and everyone with an education, use that term because we do live in a patriarchal society. Edit: In response to your comment below, you're literally in the comment section of an article discussing the repercussions of men "failing" in their expected social role of head of household.
        tomp 10y ago
DefaultUserHN 10y ago
>Is it because society expects them to be providers, and ridicules men who don't ? No. It's because his starving kids expect their father to bring home the food. Because how else are his kids suppose to get food?

I was wondering why men tie their identity to employment so much. Is it because society expects them to be providers, and ridicules men who don't ?

by MollyR 10y ago

I was wondering why men tie their identity to employment so much. Is it because society expects them to be providers, and ridicules men who don't ?

ethanbond 10y ago

I'd assume so. As much as HN likes to ridicule the notion of "the patriarchy," this is a component of it that's awfully harmful to men.

karmajunkie 10y ago
Yes absolutely. Sexism harms everyone.
oldmanjay 10y ago
There is a vast difference between ridiculing something and not accepting it on faith solely because very passionate people make assertions about it.
- ethanbond 10y ago
  Sure, but that's my point. I think a lot of men on here have probably felt this effect. If it's not from "the patriarchy," or something similar by a different name, then what is it from? You don't have to think that, say, women's fashion changes faster than men's fashion because "the patriarchy!", but it takes some serious aloofness not to see that male dominance in society trickles down to some very strange places indeed. As an example: that a man's employment status is the largest factor in his marital success.
  - klipt 10y ago
    I think plenty of people agree that Traditional Gender Roles cause problems for men and women who don't conform to them. But not everyone agrees that Traditional Genders Roles should be called "the patriarchy", because that has connotations that men (even the men being hurt by Traditional Gender Roles) are in control, which feels like blaming the victim.
  - DefaultUserHN 10y ago
    >...that a man's employment status is the largest factor in his marital success. Well, if he can't provide for his kids, then what's the point of staying married to him? For love? Love can't feed your starving kids. Might as well go remarry some other dude who are competent enough to provide for your kids. Unless of course, you want to take the easy route and rely on government food stamps. Or, be those like stressed out single mom who has to do everything by herself, single handily doing BOTH the jobs of a man and a woman.
Snargorf 10y ago
That's not "the patriarchy", it's just traditional gender norms. There is a very big difference.
home_boi 10y ago
This idea really has nothing to do with the concept of patriarchy. It would only be one idea out of many that patriarchy represents.
tomp 10y ago
HN ridicules the notion of patriarchy because the word itself implies it's somehow men's fault. Which it isn't. Social toles are enforced by most of the society, so we might as well call it "matriarchy", but that would piss feminists off, so we don't.
- gizmo 10y ago
  It implies no such thing. "patriarchy" is a descriptive term in social science and it has nothing to do with fault or blame. We don't choose the society we're born into and obviously we're not responsible for those things that are out of our control. We should of course be held accountable for the choices we make, especially when those choices hurt others.
  - tomp 10y ago
    It's also a wrong term. "Patriarchy" means a system where women are owned by men (husbands, fathers, brothers), cannot own property, etc. The only reason why feminists chose this term to describe the current social order (which is clearly not a patriarchy in the literal sense) is to elicit negative emotions.
    - ethanbond 10y ago
      Uh, no it doesn't. Patriarchal societies are ones where elder males are the heads of households (generally true) and descent (such as surnames) are passed through the males (generally true). There are matriarchal societies – including many Native American ones. Those are called matriarchal societies. They're notably different from what we have. I think they're less common today than they ever have been, but patriarchal societies are also "less patriarchal," i.e. males don't own females, as you stated. Feminists, and everyone with an education, use that term because we do live in a patriarchal society. Edit: In response to your comment below, you're literally in the comment section of an article discussing the repercussions of men "failing" in their expected social role of head of household.
      - tomp 10y ago

DefaultUserHN 10y ago

>Is it because society expects them to be providers, and ridicules men who don't ? No. It's because his starving kids expect their father to bring home the food. Because how else are his kids suppose to get food?