4 ms·

Only in programming would this type of statement hold any merit. I was an air traffic controller for 10 years prior to becoming a data scientist. Experience is

by riot504 10y ago

Only in programming would this type of statement hold any merit. I was an air traffic controller for 10 years prior to becoming a data scientist. Experience is more than just being able to code (or do your specific job), it brings a wealth of knowledge you have to yet notice or realize.

serge2k 10y ago
> Experience is more than just being able to code Necessary, but not sufficient. If you can't code you're worthless as a developer. You can be a great coder, but if your other skills are poor you aren't worth a senior engineer salary.
- riot504 10y ago
  No one is saying the experienced individuals cannot code. Based on OP's comment I am going to assume he/she is young based on my personal experience hearing these types of comments throughout my career. They stem from only knowing one way of approaching a task, to which they respond negatively to anything different, particularly if it is outdated. Instead they should seek to learn from the experienced individuals and understand why they are solving the problems in that particular manner.
- derefr 10y ago
  I've had points in my programming career where I felt completely burnt out. I would open up a text-editor and just stare at it. I didn't want to create. But, separately from programming, I absolutely love teaching/mentoring. I found that, if I was helping someone with a programming problem, I could code just fine while burnt out. As long as someone else was doing "the programming"—the part involving wanting to create something and actually typing it—I was fine with them "borrowing" my knowledge and expertise in the form of doing all their design work, finding libraries and API functions for them, correcting their syntax errors, doing all their debugging, and basically every other part of programming that isn't typing words. If someone handed me a college intern—or, hell, even a really passionate and patient elementary schooler—to serve as my "assistant", then I could make them appear to be a great programmer. If you hired me to wander around a team and pair-program with everyone, I could have a multiplicative effect on that team's productivity. But, by myself, I wouldn't be able to code for beans. What do you call me?
  - serge2k 10y ago
    Justify to me why you shouldn't be replaced by someone who has comparable skills, but doesn't rely entirely on pair programming? I can't hand you an important task and expect it to get done unless I give you a second resource? You are talking about burnout. Would you really walk into an interview and respond to a coding question with "Oh, you'll have to write with me directing because I only pair program"? I'm going to stand by my earlier statement. Being able to code is a necessary skill for a senior developer. Or any developer really.
    - derefr 10y ago
      1. Why are you assuming that my job description would/should be "engineer"? Why not, say, QA lead? 2. Why hand me the task? Why not hand someone else the task, and I'll wander in and make sure they get it done twice as quickly? Why does everyone need to be modellable as a task-queue that atomic problem-statements can be dropped into? You don't expect, say, your office manager to program; but you do expect that, by hiring an office manager, more programming will get done, because now your programmers aren't running out to buy drinks for the fridge and toilet paper. 3. Remember that I did say that I could get work done by pair-programming with an intern, not an employee. The phrase "second resource" implies that you're imagining yourself handing me someone who you could get Hard Problems done on their own. My point was that, with a few people like me around, you could mostly just "hire" people (often for free!) who have no idea how to get Hard Problems—or even Regular Problems—done, and me and my type of person would guide them and the work would get done in the process. This is usually known, in the trades, as an apprentice system. Apprentices do all the "work", you know. They're the hands that build most things that get built. Masters just stand there guiding those hands.
      - serge2k 10y ago
        > Why are you assuming that my job description would/should be "engineer"? Why not, say, QA lead? Because that's what this entire conversation is about.
  - msie 10y ago
    Code Midwife?
nilkn 10y ago
Just the other day I interviewed someone with ~15 years of experience who struggled quite a bit with FizzBuzz. We ultimately decided to pass. Last week, I interviewed someone about to complete a master's degree from Georgia Tech who also could barely do FizzBuzz. What should we be doing to identify people who fail FizzBuzz but we should actually be hiring? Honestly the bar for our initial phone screens is very low, and yet experienced and well-educated people still manage to fail, sometimes spectacularly. FizzBuzz is one of the most important questions we ask because of this phenomenon.
- riot504 10y ago
  I learned to program on the job, I have masters in economic (econometrics focused, which I was hired), but I am not sure how someone can't make there way through FizzBuzz. I am sure mine wouldn't be the best code written, particularly during an interview, but I could make it through the test. Based on my experience as an air traffic controller which requires more tests than I care to state, when we would transfer facilities we were given oral tests to gauge our experience. We would mark down the areas deficient that needed review and check areas off where knowledge was deemed satisfactory. There would be zero air traffic controllers if we dismissed candidates answering one question wrong regardless of simplicity.

by riot504 10y ago

serge2k 10y ago

> Experience is more than just being able to code Necessary, but not sufficient. If you can't code you're worthless as a developer. You can be a great coder, but if your other skills are poor you aren't worth a senior engineer salary.

riot504 10y ago
No one is saying the experienced individuals cannot code. Based on OP's comment I am going to assume he/she is young based on my personal experience hearing these types of comments throughout my career. They stem from only knowing one way of approaching a task, to which they respond negatively to anything different, particularly if it is outdated. Instead they should seek to learn from the experienced individuals and understand why they are solving the problems in that particular manner.
derefr 10y ago
I've had points in my programming career where I felt completely burnt out. I would open up a text-editor and just stare at it. I didn't want to create. But, separately from programming, I absolutely love teaching/mentoring. I found that, if I was helping someone with a programming problem, I could code just fine while burnt out. As long as someone else was doing "the programming"—the part involving wanting to create something and actually typing it—I was fine with them "borrowing" my knowledge and expertise in the form of doing all their design work, finding libraries and API functions for them, correcting their syntax errors, doing all their debugging, and basically every other part of programming that isn't typing words. If someone handed me a college intern—or, hell, even a really passionate and patient elementary schooler—to serve as my "assistant", then I could make them appear to be a great programmer. If you hired me to wander around a team and pair-program with everyone, I could have a multiplicative effect on that team's productivity. But, by myself, I wouldn't be able to code for beans. What do you call me?
- serge2k 10y ago
  Justify to me why you shouldn't be replaced by someone who has comparable skills, but doesn't rely entirely on pair programming? I can't hand you an important task and expect it to get done unless I give you a second resource? You are talking about burnout. Would you really walk into an interview and respond to a coding question with "Oh, you'll have to write with me directing because I only pair program"? I'm going to stand by my earlier statement. Being able to code is a necessary skill for a senior developer. Or any developer really.
  - derefr 10y ago
    1. Why are you assuming that my job description would/should be "engineer"? Why not, say, QA lead? 2. Why hand me the task? Why not hand someone else the task, and I'll wander in and make sure they get it done twice as quickly? Why does everyone need to be modellable as a task-queue that atomic problem-statements can be dropped into? You don't expect, say, your office manager to program; but you do expect that, by hiring an office manager, more programming will get done, because now your programmers aren't running out to buy drinks for the fridge and toilet paper. 3. Remember that I did say that I could get work done by pair-programming with an intern, not an employee. The phrase "second resource" implies that you're imagining yourself handing me someone who you could get Hard Problems done on their own. My point was that, with a few people like me around, you could mostly just "hire" people (often for free!) who have no idea how to get Hard Problems—or even Regular Problems—done, and me and my type of person would guide them and the work would get done in the process. This is usually known, in the trades, as an apprentice system. Apprentices do all the "work", you know. They're the hands that build most things that get built. Masters just stand there guiding those hands.
    - serge2k 10y ago
      > Why are you assuming that my job description would/should be "engineer"? Why not, say, QA lead? Because that's what this entire conversation is about.
- msie 10y ago
  Code Midwife?

nilkn 10y ago

Just the other day I interviewed someone with ~15 years of experience who struggled quite a bit with FizzBuzz. We ultimately decided to pass. Last week, I interviewed someone about to complete a master's degree from Georgia Tech who also could barely do FizzBuzz. What should we be doing to identify people who fail FizzBuzz but we should actually be hiring? Honestly the bar for our initial phone screens is very low, and yet experienced and well-educated people still manage to fail, sometimes spectacularly. FizzBuzz is one of the most important questions we ask because of this phenomenon.

riot504 10y ago
I learned to program on the job, I have masters in economic (econometrics focused, which I was hired), but I am not sure how someone can't make there way through FizzBuzz. I am sure mine wouldn't be the best code written, particularly during an interview, but I could make it through the test. Based on my experience as an air traffic controller which requires more tests than I care to state, when we would transfer facilities we were given oral tests to gauge our experience. We would mark down the areas deficient that needed review and check areas off where knowledge was deemed satisfactory. There would be zero air traffic controllers if we dismissed candidates answering one question wrong regardless of simplicity.