4 ms·

I have just under ten years of experience and lead teams of developers, Amazon routinely spams me asking me to do 120 min online coding tasks before even a phon

by jc4p 10y ago

I have just under ten years of experience and lead teams of developers, Amazon routinely spams me asking me to do 120 min online coding tasks before even a phone screen too. It's just fucking disrespectful of my time, to be honest.

wernercd 10y ago
I'm at a new job where the "old team" of two developers is being replaced by 5 devs... the old team had ~15 years of experience and can't code their way out of a wet paper bag. Not saying anything about YOU... experience is important... but 15 years experience doesn't mean 15 years of good experience or lack of bad habits.
- jc4p 10y ago
  Yeah, definitely agreed. I just wanted to point out the person's "I opened the door to Amazon as a new dev" isn't purely limited to new devs perspectives.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  So, what were they doing for 15 years and why weren't they replaced sooner?
  - wernercd 10y ago
    Basically the company started expanding and their code base started falling apart at the seams. Two coders that each had "silos" with wedges to keep the two sides communicating together. One did web side - ordering, registration, etc on a Webform MVC customized hybrid. The other did floor applications. New customer? New database, website, etc. Sql statements? "If company a then select * from blah where field like '{text}';" everywhere. Why select *? Because the different code bases diverged... why like/text? Because sql injection doesn't exist. Almost everything text fields... 2 wide inventory fields that house more than 99 items... 10 wide inventory fields that house 2 items... I will have some posts for TheDailyWTF once I get my feet a bit more wet... As to why it took so long? They were able to keep it running with duck tape and bubble gum... once the company started expanding, the better of the two programmers knew they couldn't keep up and left earlier this year. The other is due gone soon... Good guy, but... unwilling to accept that his code is shit.
    - vonmoltke 10y ago
      We probably disagree, but to me "code is shit" and "the company started expanding and their code base started falling apart at the seams" is a far cry from "can't code their way out of a wet paper bag". Sounds like they knew enough to patch together a system that made your company money for years. To me, that puts them squarely in the middle of "can't code their way out of a wet paper bag" and "good engineer I would trust to design my systems".
      - wernercd 10y ago
        I'm not super experienced but I read enough to know bad code when I see it. * No separation of UI/Code. WinForms in all it's glory. * SELECT * in code behind. Never anything else. * WHERE field LIKE '{}' - never 'where field ='. Always like. * {} is a from text entry fields. Sql Injection? Sanitation? Boundaries? What's that? * Separate code paths for different companies because each customer had their own unique stack that diverged - Database tables, Winforms, processes. IF Company A then SELECT * FROM DBA.dbo.TblA WHERE FieldA = '{}' ELSEIF Company B then SELECT * FROM DBD.dbo.TblB WHERE FieldB = '{}'... etc. * Copy Pasta all the way down. * Never used source control until New Guard arrived (me being newest developer). * Test environment? Waste of time... Everything done against production. I saw the old programmer jack up a sql query resulting in a data restore, and I've been here less than two weeks. You can argue that what they did "works"... but you can fix a car with duct tape... then wonder why the door flies off at 65mph. Trust me (as much as you can trust a random guy on the interwebz)... Their code is shit. Not "I'm an artist and think your artistry is shit" shit... but every bad idea you can consider in coding shit.
        vonmoltke 10y ago
        I'm not saying their code isn't shit, just that it is shit code that works (for some purposes at least). That is much different from not being able to generate code that works at all. I would say these guys can "code their way out of a wet paper bag". They will just make a royal mess doing it.
- riot504 10y ago
  Only in programming would this type of statement hold any merit. I was an air traffic controller for 10 years prior to becoming a data scientist. Experience is more than just being able to code (or do your specific job), it brings a wealth of knowledge you have to yet notice or realize.
  - serge2k 10y ago
    > Experience is more than just being able to code Necessary, but not sufficient. If you can't code you're worthless as a developer. You can be a great coder, but if your other skills are poor you aren't worth a senior engineer salary.
    - riot504 10y ago
      No one is saying the experienced individuals cannot code. Based on OP's comment I am going to assume he/she is young based on my personal experience hearing these types of comments throughout my career. They stem from only knowing one way of approaching a task, to which they respond negatively to anything different, particularly if it is outdated. Instead they should seek to learn from the experienced individuals and understand why they are solving the problems in that particular manner.
    - derefr 10y ago
      I've had points in my programming career where I felt completely burnt out. I would open up a text-editor and just stare at it. I didn't want to create. But, separately from programming, I absolutely love teaching/mentoring. I found that, if I was helping someone with a programming problem, I could code just fine while burnt out. As long as someone else was doing "the programming"—the part involving wanting to create something and actually typing it—I was fine with them "borrowing" my knowledge and expertise in the form of doing all their design work, finding libraries and API functions for them, correcting their syntax errors, doing all their debugging, and basically every other part of programming that isn't typing words. If someone handed me a college intern—or, hell, even a really passionate and patient elementary schooler—to serve as my "assistant", then I could make them appear to be a great programmer. If you hired me to wander around a team and pair-program with everyone, I could have a multiplicative effect on that team's productivity. But, by myself, I wouldn't be able to code for beans. What do you call me?
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  I totally get why someone would push coding tasks even on experienced devs - if you're meeting someone without a recommendation then history doesn't guarantee value. But it still seems weird to push heavy coding sessions without even speaking to the candidate, and that seems weirder the more experienced people are. You might assume that a new grad doesn't care what work they're doing and can just be interviewed for a job in "software", but why throw somebody with 15 years behind them into a funnel without even talking about what it's a funnel for?
- btilly 10y ago
  The classic phrase describing this is, There is a world of difference between 10 years of experience, and 1 year of experience 10 times.
twistedpair 10y ago
They only spam you? I've been called, on my desk phone 4 times in the last year by their head hunters. It seems no matter how many times I tell them no, they don't get the message.

by jc4p 10y ago

wernercd 10y ago

I'm at a new job where the "old team" of two developers is being replaced by 5 devs... the old team had ~15 years of experience and can't code their way out of a wet paper bag. Not saying anything about YOU... experience is important... but 15 years experience doesn't mean 15 years of good experience or lack of bad habits.

jc4p 10y ago
Yeah, definitely agreed. I just wanted to point out the person's "I opened the door to Amazon as a new dev" isn't purely limited to new devs perspectives.
vonmoltke 10y ago
So, what were they doing for 15 years and why weren't they replaced sooner?
- wernercd 10y ago
  Basically the company started expanding and their code base started falling apart at the seams. Two coders that each had "silos" with wedges to keep the two sides communicating together. One did web side - ordering, registration, etc on a Webform MVC customized hybrid. The other did floor applications. New customer? New database, website, etc. Sql statements? "If company a then select * from blah where field like '{text}';" everywhere. Why select *? Because the different code bases diverged... why like/text? Because sql injection doesn't exist. Almost everything text fields... 2 wide inventory fields that house more than 99 items... 10 wide inventory fields that house 2 items... I will have some posts for TheDailyWTF once I get my feet a bit more wet... As to why it took so long? They were able to keep it running with duck tape and bubble gum... once the company started expanding, the better of the two programmers knew they couldn't keep up and left earlier this year. The other is due gone soon... Good guy, but... unwilling to accept that his code is shit.
  - vonmoltke 10y ago
    We probably disagree, but to me "code is shit" and "the company started expanding and their code base started falling apart at the seams" is a far cry from "can't code their way out of a wet paper bag". Sounds like they knew enough to patch together a system that made your company money for years. To me, that puts them squarely in the middle of "can't code their way out of a wet paper bag" and "good engineer I would trust to design my systems".
    - wernercd 10y ago
      I'm not super experienced but I read enough to know bad code when I see it. * No separation of UI/Code. WinForms in all it's glory. * SELECT * in code behind. Never anything else. * WHERE field LIKE '{}' - never 'where field ='. Always like. * {} is a from text entry fields. Sql Injection? Sanitation? Boundaries? What's that? * Separate code paths for different companies because each customer had their own unique stack that diverged - Database tables, Winforms, processes. IF Company A then SELECT * FROM DBA.dbo.TblA WHERE FieldA = '{}' ELSEIF Company B then SELECT * FROM DBD.dbo.TblB WHERE FieldB = '{}'... etc. * Copy Pasta all the way down. * Never used source control until New Guard arrived (me being newest developer). * Test environment? Waste of time... Everything done against production. I saw the old programmer jack up a sql query resulting in a data restore, and I've been here less than two weeks. You can argue that what they did "works"... but you can fix a car with duct tape... then wonder why the door flies off at 65mph. Trust me (as much as you can trust a random guy on the interwebz)... Their code is shit. Not "I'm an artist and think your artistry is shit" shit... but every bad idea you can consider in coding shit.
      - vonmoltke 10y ago
        I'm not saying their code isn't shit, just that it is shit code that works (for some purposes at least). That is much different from not being able to generate code that works at all. I would say these guys can "code their way out of a wet paper bag". They will just make a royal mess doing it.
riot504 10y ago
Only in programming would this type of statement hold any merit. I was an air traffic controller for 10 years prior to becoming a data scientist. Experience is more than just being able to code (or do your specific job), it brings a wealth of knowledge you have to yet notice or realize.
- serge2k 10y ago
  > Experience is more than just being able to code Necessary, but not sufficient. If you can't code you're worthless as a developer. You can be a great coder, but if your other skills are poor you aren't worth a senior engineer salary.
  - riot504 10y ago
    No one is saying the experienced individuals cannot code. Based on OP's comment I am going to assume he/she is young based on my personal experience hearing these types of comments throughout my career. They stem from only knowing one way of approaching a task, to which they respond negatively to anything different, particularly if it is outdated. Instead they should seek to learn from the experienced individuals and understand why they are solving the problems in that particular manner.
  - derefr 10y ago
    I've had points in my programming career where I felt completely burnt out. I would open up a text-editor and just stare at it. I didn't want to create. But, separately from programming, I absolutely love teaching/mentoring. I found that, if I was helping someone with a programming problem, I could code just fine while burnt out. As long as someone else was doing "the programming"—the part involving wanting to create something and actually typing it—I was fine with them "borrowing" my knowledge and expertise in the form of doing all their design work, finding libraries and API functions for them, correcting their syntax errors, doing all their debugging, and basically every other part of programming that isn't typing words. If someone handed me a college intern—or, hell, even a really passionate and patient elementary schooler—to serve as my "assistant", then I could make them appear to be a great programmer. If you hired me to wander around a team and pair-program with everyone, I could have a multiplicative effect on that team's productivity. But, by myself, I wouldn't be able to code for beans. What do you call me?
Bartweiss 10y ago
I totally get why someone would push coding tasks even on experienced devs - if you're meeting someone without a recommendation then history doesn't guarantee value. But it still seems weird to push heavy coding sessions without even speaking to the candidate, and that seems weirder the more experienced people are. You might assume that a new grad doesn't care what work they're doing and can just be interviewed for a job in "software", but why throw somebody with 15 years behind them into a funnel without even talking about what it's a funnel for?
btilly 10y ago
The classic phrase describing this is, There is a world of difference between 10 years of experience, and 1 year of experience 10 times.

twistedpair 10y ago

They only spam you? I've been called, on my desk phone 4 times in the last year by their head hunters. It seems no matter how many times I tell them no, they don't get the message.