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That does not sound like it's trying to trick you. They're offering something valuable in return for your email address. That is what every startup guru advises

by rfrey 10y ago

That does not sound like it's trying to trick you. They're offering something valuable in return for your email address. That is what every startup guru advises companies to do. Apparently the value wasn't high enough for you to sign up. That's fine. But why is it a "dark pattern"?

deleted 10y ago
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throwanem 10y ago
Because you can't fairly evaluate the offering if you can't see it until after you've already given away the item of value (in this case, your email address) in exchange for which the offering is made.
TeMPOraL 10y ago
> That is what every startup guru advises companies to do. A lot of things that "startup guru" advise are light shades of scams. A honest business deal is when a customer is given enough information to evaluate the proposal and then gets an option to decide - without influencing - to enter the transaction. One needs to keep that in mind. In this case - it's what 'throwanem replied - "you can't fairly evaluate the offering if you can't see it until after you've already given away the item of value".
- rfrey 10y ago
  I just looked at AllTrails, and it's pretty clear what the value is - you get to download and print the maps, and use them on your phone. I appreciate what you're saying about an honest transaction, but "dark patterns" is a useful term that is being diluted to apply to any company that doesn't offer everything for nothing. If asking you to create an account to use the product is a "dark pattern", what do we call moving buttons to capture accidental tricks, getting you to open your contact list with tricky wording and spamming everyone, etc? Surely those aren't the same as "please create an account to use our product"?
  - throwanem 10y ago
    Sure, those are worse, but it's a difference of kind rather than degree. I mean, I can download, print, and view offline maps from OpenStreetMap, too. That's free and it doesn't play cheesy games to get my information. Why should I care about AllTrails, which does? (I feel like I should note that the default presumption here is of sketchiness, not uprightness. Maybe that's unfair, and maybe there are a lot of us out here who've been hosed often enough by bait-and-switch games that anything which smells of yet another one gets tarred with the same brush. I don't think that's an argument against the article's thesis, you know?)

by rfrey 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

throwanem 10y ago

Because you can't fairly evaluate the offering if you can't see it until after you've already given away the item of value (in this case, your email address) in exchange for which the offering is made.

TeMPOraL 10y ago

> That is what every startup guru advises companies to do. A lot of things that "startup guru" advise are light shades of scams. A honest business deal is when a customer is given enough information to evaluate the proposal and then gets an option to decide - without influencing - to enter the transaction. One needs to keep that in mind. In this case - it's what 'throwanem replied - "you can't fairly evaluate the offering if you can't see it until after you've already given away the item of value".

rfrey 10y ago
I just looked at AllTrails, and it's pretty clear what the value is - you get to download and print the maps, and use them on your phone. I appreciate what you're saying about an honest transaction, but "dark patterns" is a useful term that is being diluted to apply to any company that doesn't offer everything for nothing. If asking you to create an account to use the product is a "dark pattern", what do we call moving buttons to capture accidental tricks, getting you to open your contact list with tricky wording and spamming everyone, etc? Surely those aren't the same as "please create an account to use our product"?
- throwanem 10y ago
  Sure, those are worse, but it's a difference of kind rather than degree. I mean, I can download, print, and view offline maps from OpenStreetMap, too. That's free and it doesn't play cheesy games to get my information. Why should I care about AllTrails, which does? (I feel like I should note that the default presumption here is of sketchiness, not uprightness. Maybe that's unfair, and maybe there are a lot of us out here who've been hosed often enough by bait-and-switch games that anything which smells of yet another one gets tarred with the same brush. I don't think that's an argument against the article's thesis, you know?)