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The headline is sensationalized and inaccurate. The actual law reads: >“Whoever uses a fraudulent computer network protocol address (IP address) by using a fa

by 794CD01 10y ago

The headline is sensationalized and inaccurate. The actual law reads: >“Whoever uses a fraudulent computer network protocol address (IP address) by using a false address or a third-party address by any other means for the purpose of committing a crime or preventing its discovery, shall be punished by temporary imprisonment and a fine of no less than Dhs 500,000 and not exceeding Dhs 2,000,000, or either of these two penalties.” Key point being "for the purpose of committing a crime or preventing its discovery". It's a way to throw the book at people already committing crimes. Rather than being outraged at this, it would be more appropriate to focus on the things that are crimes and should not be, like their moronic VoIP laws.

jorge-fundido 10y ago
Interpretation of "preventing its discovery" and what they consider fraud is the concerning bit to me. It's not clear whether they consider using a VPN to access Netflix as fraudulent.
- 794CD01 10y ago
  Accessing Netflix is not a crime, so using a VPN to access netflix would not be. If you used a VPN in a different country to access Netflix in order to circumvent their licensing restrictions, it probably becomes a complex matter of international copyright agreements. But that is already against the netflix terms of service no matter which country you are in, so complaints that you should be allowed to do that should be primarily directed at Netflix themselves, not the UAE.
ptaipale 10y ago
Well, a part of the problem obviously is that it's "throwing the book at people already committing crimes" in a place where the definition of a "crime" is not very reasonable. For instance, a woman getting raped is defined as "extramarital sex" which is a crime. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/26/hundreds-of-women-prosecuted-for-extramarital-sex-in-uae-finds-bbc https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/26/hundreds-of-wo...
- knodi123 10y ago
  > For instance, a woman getting raped is defined as "extramarital sex" which is a crime. He literally ended his comment with that point. You're not adding anything here.
  - ElijahLynn 10y ago
    Literal: You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. https://www.google.com/search?q=you+keep+using+that+word https://www.google.com/search?q=you+keep+using+that+word
    - wlesieutre 10y ago
      Except 794CD01 did literally end his comment with that point: > it would be more appropriate to focus on the things that are crimes and should not be, like their moronic VoIP laws. Anyway, I think we can all agree that throwing the book at people for bullshit crimes and the bullshit crimes themselves are both bullshit.
      - ethanbond 10y ago
        I guess some commenters with a sense of nuance don't find weird VoIP laws to be remotely similar to caveman era rape and monogamy laws and find the conflation somewhat distasteful.
        wlesieutre 10y ago
        I admit, I don't know why ptaipale bought that up as an example of their laws, since there are plenty of electronic examples that are relevant to the VPN issue. For instance, posting vacation photos on Facebook. If you don't get permission from someone in a photo, even in a public space, it's illegal in the UAE. And if you were posting to Facebook through a VPN, stack on an extra half million dollars. That part was previously covered under this law, with the new additions being to cover VOIP and other blocked services. Regardless of the recent changes, the UAE is awfully far down on the list of places I'd ever consider traveling.
freditup 10y ago
What counts as a crime though? Is reading anti-government articles a crime? Is viewing women in bathing suits (say you were shopping for your wife) a crime? Is unintentionally viewing a NSFW image on Reddit a crime? It would be interesting to know how this law is really enforced - it could range from legitimate and fair to very authoritarian. (Note: I've heard the laws in the UAE can be strict, but I have no idea if this is factual.)
- knodi123 10y ago
  > What counts as a crime though? Is reading anti-government articles a crime? If you'd finished reading his comment, you'd have come across this sentence: "Rather than being outraged at this, it would be more appropriate to focus on the things that are crimes and should not be".
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    I think it is perfectly reasonable to be suspicious ("outraged" is perhaps too strong a word) of both.
- venomsnake 10y ago
  Crime is anything that someone, with whom the powers of the day are unhappy with, does.
- 794CD01 10y ago
  Using voip services like Skype is a crime. I would guess that is the main target of this law, since using VPNs to circumvent the present ban on such services is very common.
AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
So, "preventing its discovery": does "its" refer to the discovery of the crime or the discovery of the IP address? Because by definition, a VPN prevents the discovery of the originator's IP address. So if interpreted that way, yes, that would effectively make VPNs illegal, as merely masking one's IP address would be considered a crime.
- atombath 10y ago
  Exactly, "preventing its discovery" as in preventing the discovery of the device. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12176837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12176837 is another HN thread that is highly relevant. 2 + 2 = UAE wants national MITM enforcement techniques and do not want VPNs ruining it.
cloudjacker 10y ago
if they ever find evidence of the crime, they can tack this on then
schoen 10y ago
Note that the U.S. considered something somewhat analogous to this several years ago. (I worked on that issue and testified at the Sentencing Commission hearing.) http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2009/03/extra-jail-time-for-proxy-users/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2009/03/extra-jail-time-f... The rationale and legal posture of the proposal were different from this legislation, but the consequence would have been that people who used a proxy or VPN in the course of committing a Federal crime would be punished more harshly. The proposal was ultimately rejected.

by 794CD01 10y ago

jorge-fundido 10y ago

Interpretation of "preventing its discovery" and what they consider fraud is the concerning bit to me. It's not clear whether they consider using a VPN to access Netflix as fraudulent.

794CD01 10y ago
Accessing Netflix is not a crime, so using a VPN to access netflix would not be. If you used a VPN in a different country to access Netflix in order to circumvent their licensing restrictions, it probably becomes a complex matter of international copyright agreements. But that is already against the netflix terms of service no matter which country you are in, so complaints that you should be allowed to do that should be primarily directed at Netflix themselves, not the UAE.

ptaipale 10y ago

Well, a part of the problem obviously is that it's "throwing the book at people already committing crimes" in a place where the definition of a "crime" is not very reasonable. For instance, a woman getting raped is defined as "extramarital sex" which is a crime. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/26/hundreds-of-women-prosecuted-for-extramarital-sex-in-uae-finds-bbc https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/26/hundreds-of-wo...

knodi123 10y ago
> For instance, a woman getting raped is defined as "extramarital sex" which is a crime. He literally ended his comment with that point. You're not adding anything here.
- ElijahLynn 10y ago
  Literal: You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. https://www.google.com/search?q=you+keep+using+that+word https://www.google.com/search?q=you+keep+using+that+word
  - wlesieutre 10y ago
    Except 794CD01 did literally end his comment with that point: > it would be more appropriate to focus on the things that are crimes and should not be, like their moronic VoIP laws. Anyway, I think we can all agree that throwing the book at people for bullshit crimes and the bullshit crimes themselves are both bullshit.
    - ethanbond 10y ago
      I guess some commenters with a sense of nuance don't find weird VoIP laws to be remotely similar to caveman era rape and monogamy laws and find the conflation somewhat distasteful.
      - wlesieutre 10y ago
        I admit, I don't know why ptaipale bought that up as an example of their laws, since there are plenty of electronic examples that are relevant to the VPN issue. For instance, posting vacation photos on Facebook. If you don't get permission from someone in a photo, even in a public space, it's illegal in the UAE. And if you were posting to Facebook through a VPN, stack on an extra half million dollars. That part was previously covered under this law, with the new additions being to cover VOIP and other blocked services. Regardless of the recent changes, the UAE is awfully far down on the list of places I'd ever consider traveling.

freditup 10y ago

What counts as a crime though? Is reading anti-government articles a crime? Is viewing women in bathing suits (say you were shopping for your wife) a crime? Is unintentionally viewing a NSFW image on Reddit a crime? It would be interesting to know how this law is really enforced - it could range from legitimate and fair to very authoritarian. (Note: I've heard the laws in the UAE can be strict, but I have no idea if this is factual.)

knodi123 10y ago
> What counts as a crime though? Is reading anti-government articles a crime? If you'd finished reading his comment, you'd have come across this sentence: "Rather than being outraged at this, it would be more appropriate to focus on the things that are crimes and should not be".
- ptaipale 10y ago
  I think it is perfectly reasonable to be suspicious ("outraged" is perhaps too strong a word) of both.
venomsnake 10y ago
Crime is anything that someone, with whom the powers of the day are unhappy with, does.
794CD01 10y ago
Using voip services like Skype is a crime. I would guess that is the main target of this law, since using VPNs to circumvent the present ban on such services is very common.

AdmiralAsshat 10y ago

So, "preventing its discovery": does "its" refer to the discovery of the crime or the discovery of the IP address? Because by definition, a VPN prevents the discovery of the originator's IP address. So if interpreted that way, yes, that would effectively make VPNs illegal, as merely masking one's IP address would be considered a crime.

atombath 10y ago
Exactly, "preventing its discovery" as in preventing the discovery of the device. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12176837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12176837 is another HN thread that is highly relevant. 2 + 2 = UAE wants national MITM enforcement techniques and do not want VPNs ruining it.

cloudjacker 10y ago

if they ever find evidence of the crime, they can tack this on then

schoen 10y ago

Note that the U.S. considered something somewhat analogous to this several years ago. (I worked on that issue and testified at the Sentencing Commission hearing.) http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2009/03/extra-jail-time-for-proxy-users/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2009/03/extra-jail-time-f... The rationale and legal posture of the proposal were different from this legislation, but the consequence would have been that people who used a proxy or VPN in the course of committing a Federal crime would be punished more harshly. The proposal was ultimately rejected.