4 ms·

That just killed Dubai/UAE off my list of countries I consider moving to.

by geff82 10y ago

rplnt 10y ago
This is hardly the first time I would remove them from such list. Not that they would ever get there with the weather there :)
mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
I hope that it was only on your list at all because you're somehow unaware of their human trafficking and slave labor issues? It seems like it should have been crossed off your list a long time ago... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Ara...
- geff82 10y ago
  I instantly want to post a link to Guantanamo as a counter argument. VAE are far from perfect and I know it. Compared to many other countries in the region, it feels like pure "freedom" to be there. I found the residents to be relatively open minded. And their respected leader, while an absolut monarch, has the problem he has to rule a country that has a heterogenous population that is partly ultra-modern and ultra-conservative and he does a quite good job (compared to other countries in the region, again). For example, drinking alcohol is allowed at home and in hotels, but it is strictly forbidden in public. If he ruled in favor of total freedom, the conservatives would complain. If he ruled in Saudi-style, the 80% foreigners and Tourists would stay away. For family reasons, business reasons, tax reasons and weather reasons, I have some appreciation for UAE. But I absolutely need open internet and will not accept anything else.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    > I instantly want to post a link to Guantanamo as a counter argument. That's not a counter argument, it's a fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes. It's also an argumentative tactic that means that no country can ever be criticized for what it's doing because the country of the person doing the criticizing will always be doing something worthy of criticism as well. It's also intellectually and morally bankrupt to compare a country's treatment of more than 50% of its population (women + the foreign laborers that outnumber Emirati citizens) with a country's treatment of a few hundred people captured on foreign battlefields.
    - geff82 10y ago
      Last time I checked, USA was far ahead of the UAE in absolute and relative numbers of regular executions (and we don't count drone strikes now). My counter arguments are not to defend the UAE, but to widen the perspective and trying to tell you to compare the country more to its neighbours. It's a pity, of course, that democratic traditions and general acceptance of human rights are not existent in most middle eastern states. Women in UAE enjoy relative freedom compared to surrounding countries (please pronounce: compared to. Of course it is not western-democratic style). They can wear the hijab or go to the beach in very short bikinis, just as they want (or, to be fair, as their tradition of the family is). In general, I did not feel unfree in the country.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        Counterargument: there is no reasonable argument that suggests that civil rights in the UAE are comparable to those of any country in North America or Europe --- Europe here probably including Belarus. Among other issues, UAE law is systemically and profoundly abusive to women.
  - riquito 10y ago
    > I instantly want to post a link to Guantanamo as a counter argument. That's not a counter argument, it's the same kind of argument against a different country
    - wongarsu 10y ago
      In the context of this site, it becomes a counter argument: "I have never seen anybody on HN even remotely suggest that you shouldn't live in or move to the USA because of their bad human rights record (on the contrary, the USA is generally portrait in a very positive light), so why should human rights violations in the UAE prevent me from living there"
      - Jtsummers 10y ago
        I absolutely have seen people post that they would not visit or move to the USA because of our human rights (real or perceived) violations. On topics from draconian drug laws and penalties, general treatment of minorities, surveillance abuses, or our international record (particularly wrt actions in the Middle East or people from there). I'll see if I can find a couple examples and edit with links. EDIT: My google fu is weak, and I'm not coming up with anything at the moment. I have found discussions about people avoiding transit through the US, but not about avoiding the US as a destination.
GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
Imagine the kind of thinking that would consider "literally everything else the UAE does" to be OK, but draws the line at "no vpns".

That just killed Dubai/UAE off my list of countries I consider moving to.

by geff82 10y ago

That just killed Dubai/UAE off my list of countries I consider moving to.

rplnt 10y ago

This is hardly the first time I would remove them from such list. Not that they would ever get there with the weather there :)

mrgoldenbrown 10y ago

I hope that it was only on your list at all because you're somehow unaware of their human trafficking and slave labor issues? It seems like it should have been crossed off your list a long time ago... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Ara...

geff82 10y ago
I instantly want to post a link to Guantanamo as a counter argument. VAE are far from perfect and I know it. Compared to many other countries in the region, it feels like pure "freedom" to be there. I found the residents to be relatively open minded. And their respected leader, while an absolut monarch, has the problem he has to rule a country that has a heterogenous population that is partly ultra-modern and ultra-conservative and he does a quite good job (compared to other countries in the region, again). For example, drinking alcohol is allowed at home and in hotels, but it is strictly forbidden in public. If he ruled in favor of total freedom, the conservatives would complain. If he ruled in Saudi-style, the 80% foreigners and Tourists would stay away. For family reasons, business reasons, tax reasons and weather reasons, I have some appreciation for UAE. But I absolutely need open internet and will not accept anything else.
- rayiner 10y ago
  > I instantly want to post a link to Guantanamo as a counter argument. That's not a counter argument, it's a fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes. It's also an argumentative tactic that means that no country can ever be criticized for what it's doing because the country of the person doing the criticizing will always be doing something worthy of criticism as well. It's also intellectually and morally bankrupt to compare a country's treatment of more than 50% of its population (women + the foreign laborers that outnumber Emirati citizens) with a country's treatment of a few hundred people captured on foreign battlefields.
  - geff82 10y ago
    Last time I checked, USA was far ahead of the UAE in absolute and relative numbers of regular executions (and we don't count drone strikes now). My counter arguments are not to defend the UAE, but to widen the perspective and trying to tell you to compare the country more to its neighbours. It's a pity, of course, that democratic traditions and general acceptance of human rights are not existent in most middle eastern states. Women in UAE enjoy relative freedom compared to surrounding countries (please pronounce: compared to. Of course it is not western-democratic style). They can wear the hijab or go to the beach in very short bikinis, just as they want (or, to be fair, as their tradition of the family is). In general, I did not feel unfree in the country.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      Counterargument: there is no reasonable argument that suggests that civil rights in the UAE are comparable to those of any country in North America or Europe --- Europe here probably including Belarus. Among other issues, UAE law is systemically and profoundly abusive to women.
- riquito 10y ago
  > I instantly want to post a link to Guantanamo as a counter argument. That's not a counter argument, it's the same kind of argument against a different country
  - wongarsu 10y ago
    In the context of this site, it becomes a counter argument: "I have never seen anybody on HN even remotely suggest that you shouldn't live in or move to the USA because of their bad human rights record (on the contrary, the USA is generally portrait in a very positive light), so why should human rights violations in the UAE prevent me from living there"
    - Jtsummers 10y ago
      I absolutely have seen people post that they would not visit or move to the USA because of our human rights (real or perceived) violations. On topics from draconian drug laws and penalties, general treatment of minorities, surveillance abuses, or our international record (particularly wrt actions in the Middle East or people from there). I'll see if I can find a couple examples and edit with links. EDIT: My google fu is weak, and I'm not coming up with anything at the moment. I have found discussions about people avoiding transit through the US, but not about avoiding the US as a destination.

GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago

Imagine the kind of thinking that would consider "literally everything else the UAE does" to be OK, but draws the line at "no vpns".