5 ms·

on a somewhat related note: if you're reading this and you use OpenSSH, you really ought to donate to the OpenBSD project via their foundation. And you should b

by pyvpx 10y ago

on a somewhat related note: if you're reading this and you use OpenSSH, you really ought to donate to the OpenBSD project via their foundation. And you should band together with the rest of your technical team(s) who most likely also use OpenSSH, and get management to make a donation in kind. http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/ http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/

X86BSD 10y ago
+1 EVERYONE uses OSSH. The OBSD foundation should be just rolling in cash like scrooge mcduck from everyone donating. I think it's pretty sad and says a lot about the IT industry that they are not. Considering that everyone uses it and it's a pretty damn vital part of everyones core infrastructure.
- xoa 10y ago
  Edit: I debated how to phrase some of this and apparently was not careful enough based on the reply. I in no way meant to imply that OpenBSD was for profit, scummy, taking money or any such thing or hadn't carefully formulated their bylaws or weren't following them. I have tons of respect for them and have repeatedly donated myself. What I was arguing (and am far from the first) is that they have made it harder and less rewarding in numerous small ways that affect donations, and I stand by that. ---- True, but at the same time (and this is not an uncommon pattern with the OpenBSD team) they have thrown up some silly roadblocks that shouldn't deter individual small contributions, but are certainly of concern for large contributions or GP pyvpx's suggestion of organized donations and matching ones, ie >"and get management to make a donation in kind" Unlike FreeBSD and pretty much every other serious donation-supported project (including NetBSD) the OpenBSD Foundation is not a [strike]legal non-profit[/strike] "tax deductible charity" (in the US that'd commonly be a 501(c) tax empty). So donations are not tax deductible and may run into barriers that others sail through. Many of the matching programs I've seen for example simply have official non-profit status as a flat-out requirement. While of course it might be possible to negotiate exceptions with management, just in having the conversation at all we're already talking massively more friction, and friction is the enemy of spending. OpenBSD has some little bit of handwaving about it (Canadian, too much trouble) which may well be valid in isolation but is irrelevant in the larger picture, and feels more like a common pattern of prideful disdain at being about "anything but the code". But to the extent money from non-coders is considered important, the interests of non-coders also have to be at least mildly considered if an increased response rate is desired. It's the 100% right of OpenBSD to make it a PITA and have snark and proudly run rough sites and such, but of course that's going to have natural consequences in interactions with the rest of the world. There's no right or wrong answer here, but I don't think your "it's pretty sad and says a lot about the IT industry that they are not" actually fully captures the situation. Other foundations are registered non-profits, have somewhat nicer pages (not crazy webapp monstrosities, but even little things like simple acknowledgment of smaller donors that OpenBSD blows off), and so on. Donors are special and rare, and a bit of personal recognition and appreciation is free and can go a long way. A lot of coders may dislike the softer general human networking side of things, but tossing it aside will generally result in a reduced experience unless there is some other form of stickiness.
  - phessler 10y ago
    This is so blatantly wrong, I had to create an account. Yes, it is true The OpenBSD Foundation is not a US 501(c)3 (side note: that is not the only type of US non-profit). That is because instead it is a _Canadian Not-For-Profit-Corporation_, which is a legal non-profit for Canada. Please, do NOT spread FUD that The OpenBSD Foundation is not a non-profit. It absolutely is. Proof: Canada Federal Corporation Information https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=4409612 https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDt... The OpenBSD Foundation Bylaws: http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/foundation/bylaws.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/foundation/bylaws.html
    - phessler 10y ago
      I should also point out, that crossing the border to Canada for donations has not been a problem for Duck Duck Go, Core Infrastructure Initiative, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Yandex, genua, HP, etc. http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html
    - xoa 10y ago
      >Please, do NOT spread FUD that The OpenBSD Foundation is not a non-profit. It absolutely is. I have added an edit and tried to reword that bit slightly, I hope that you find it a little better. It was an honest terminology flub I guess, when I used "legal non-profit" I was aiming for the more colloquial sense it's often used in America when discussing "donations", which is the subtopic at hand here, wherein it tends to be taken for granted that the entity provides receipts for tax deduction. However, I can see how it'd be confusing and could be taken the wrong way, or feel like a slur. FUD was the very farthest thing from my mind. I stand by the thrust of the post however. The quality of code produced and its foundational status for much of the development world is not in question, but I don't think the (often celebrated) "roughness" of Theo et al in small ways is either (again, mostly in small ways like not listing anything but huge donors or that Comic Sans initial LibreSSL site [1]). This is not a value judgement; I think there are good arguments for both sides about the pros and cons of "public friendliness" and the resources that takes up vs the return for any given project. But it's not fair to pretend that abrasiveness is or should be cost free either. When you launch a project like LibreSSL in the midst of a relatively huge (and as always temporary) amount of temporary news coverage over the subject and the first general impression of the project to the general public is [1] >"This page scientifically designed to annoy web hipsters," the site says. "Donate now to stop the Comic Sans and Blink Tags." well, that may or may not result in a lot of people "donating now" right? Like it or not webs of trust, proxies, and authorities are the methods people have to use to evaluate most of the information input they deal with in life, at least as a first pass filter. I want OpenBSD to make as much money as they need, but I don't think they're immune to basic forces of competition that everyone else faces either. I'm honestly not sure if they're actually even facing any money issues they care about beyond a basic "more is certainly helpful and would allow for more hardware testing and the like". There are other models beyond soliciting individual small donations, and I see significant corp ones (and pressuring other large companies to toss in $10-50k a year might be effective, why isn't Apple in Gold/Platinum?). But in the restricted context of the post I was replying too arguing that the lack of tons more coming in from smaller distributed sources, small businesses and so on, and then slamming all involved, well I don't think that's entirely fair. OpenBSD could do better there, if they need/want to. And I've repeated that because if they're happy with how things are now then there is certainly no need for them to change. Not everything is about getting as much as possible, if they're satisfied with what they have as "enough" then good for them. [1]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/openssl-code-beyond-repair-claims-creator-of-libressl-fork/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/opens...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
akerro 10y ago
I tricked you both and donated per 60euro to both FreeBSD and OpenBSD!

by pyvpx 10y ago

X86BSD 10y ago

+1 EVERYONE uses OSSH. The OBSD foundation should be just rolling in cash like scrooge mcduck from everyone donating. I think it's pretty sad and says a lot about the IT industry that they are not. Considering that everyone uses it and it's a pretty damn vital part of everyones core infrastructure.

xoa 10y ago
Edit: I debated how to phrase some of this and apparently was not careful enough based on the reply. I in no way meant to imply that OpenBSD was for profit, scummy, taking money or any such thing or hadn't carefully formulated their bylaws or weren't following them. I have tons of respect for them and have repeatedly donated myself. What I was arguing (and am far from the first) is that they have made it harder and less rewarding in numerous small ways that affect donations, and I stand by that. ---- True, but at the same time (and this is not an uncommon pattern with the OpenBSD team) they have thrown up some silly roadblocks that shouldn't deter individual small contributions, but are certainly of concern for large contributions or GP pyvpx's suggestion of organized donations and matching ones, ie >"and get management to make a donation in kind" Unlike FreeBSD and pretty much every other serious donation-supported project (including NetBSD) the OpenBSD Foundation is not a [strike]legal non-profit[/strike] "tax deductible charity" (in the US that'd commonly be a 501(c) tax empty). So donations are not tax deductible and may run into barriers that others sail through. Many of the matching programs I've seen for example simply have official non-profit status as a flat-out requirement. While of course it might be possible to negotiate exceptions with management, just in having the conversation at all we're already talking massively more friction, and friction is the enemy of spending. OpenBSD has some little bit of handwaving about it (Canadian, too much trouble) which may well be valid in isolation but is irrelevant in the larger picture, and feels more like a common pattern of prideful disdain at being about "anything but the code". But to the extent money from non-coders is considered important, the interests of non-coders also have to be at least mildly considered if an increased response rate is desired. It's the 100% right of OpenBSD to make it a PITA and have snark and proudly run rough sites and such, but of course that's going to have natural consequences in interactions with the rest of the world. There's no right or wrong answer here, but I don't think your "it's pretty sad and says a lot about the IT industry that they are not" actually fully captures the situation. Other foundations are registered non-profits, have somewhat nicer pages (not crazy webapp monstrosities, but even little things like simple acknowledgment of smaller donors that OpenBSD blows off), and so on. Donors are special and rare, and a bit of personal recognition and appreciation is free and can go a long way. A lot of coders may dislike the softer general human networking side of things, but tossing it aside will generally result in a reduced experience unless there is some other form of stickiness.
- phessler 10y ago
  This is so blatantly wrong, I had to create an account. Yes, it is true The OpenBSD Foundation is not a US 501(c)3 (side note: that is not the only type of US non-profit). That is because instead it is a _Canadian Not-For-Profit-Corporation_, which is a legal non-profit for Canada. Please, do NOT spread FUD that The OpenBSD Foundation is not a non-profit. It absolutely is. Proof: Canada Federal Corporation Information https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=4409612 https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDt... The OpenBSD Foundation Bylaws: http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/foundation/bylaws.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/foundation/bylaws.html
  - phessler 10y ago
    I should also point out, that crossing the border to Canada for donations has not been a problem for Duck Duck Go, Core Infrastructure Initiative, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Yandex, genua, HP, etc. http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html
  - xoa 10y ago
    >Please, do NOT spread FUD that The OpenBSD Foundation is not a non-profit. It absolutely is. I have added an edit and tried to reword that bit slightly, I hope that you find it a little better. It was an honest terminology flub I guess, when I used "legal non-profit" I was aiming for the more colloquial sense it's often used in America when discussing "donations", which is the subtopic at hand here, wherein it tends to be taken for granted that the entity provides receipts for tax deduction. However, I can see how it'd be confusing and could be taken the wrong way, or feel like a slur. FUD was the very farthest thing from my mind. I stand by the thrust of the post however. The quality of code produced and its foundational status for much of the development world is not in question, but I don't think the (often celebrated) "roughness" of Theo et al in small ways is either (again, mostly in small ways like not listing anything but huge donors or that Comic Sans initial LibreSSL site [1]). This is not a value judgement; I think there are good arguments for both sides about the pros and cons of "public friendliness" and the resources that takes up vs the return for any given project. But it's not fair to pretend that abrasiveness is or should be cost free either. When you launch a project like LibreSSL in the midst of a relatively huge (and as always temporary) amount of temporary news coverage over the subject and the first general impression of the project to the general public is [1] >"This page scientifically designed to annoy web hipsters," the site says. "Donate now to stop the Comic Sans and Blink Tags." well, that may or may not result in a lot of people "donating now" right? Like it or not webs of trust, proxies, and authorities are the methods people have to use to evaluate most of the information input they deal with in life, at least as a first pass filter. I want OpenBSD to make as much money as they need, but I don't think they're immune to basic forces of competition that everyone else faces either. I'm honestly not sure if they're actually even facing any money issues they care about beyond a basic "more is certainly helpful and would allow for more hardware testing and the like". There are other models beyond soliciting individual small donations, and I see significant corp ones (and pressuring other large companies to toss in $10-50k a year might be effective, why isn't Apple in Gold/Platinum?). But in the restricted context of the post I was replying too arguing that the lack of tons more coming in from smaller distributed sources, small businesses and so on, and then slamming all involved, well I don't think that's entirely fair. OpenBSD could do better there, if they need/want to. And I've repeated that because if they're happy with how things are now then there is certainly no need for them to change. Not everything is about getting as much as possible, if they're satisfied with what they have as "enough" then good for them. [1]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/openssl-code-beyond-repair-claims-creator-of-libressl-fork/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/opens...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

akerro 10y ago

I tricked you both and donated per 60euro to both FreeBSD and OpenBSD!