3 ms·

You're absolutely right, it is fed 12,000 calories of alfalfa. Even if alfalfa were less energy intensive to grow than leafy green vegetables, it will never be

by pilom 10y ago

You're absolutely right, it is fed 12,000 calories of alfalfa. Even if alfalfa were less energy intensive to grow than leafy green vegetables, it will never be 12 times less intensive. Almonds or blueberries requiring 2x more energy per calorie than alfalfa? Mabye. Never gonna be 12 times.

toasterlovin 10y ago
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I agree that meat in general, and beef in particular, is input intensive. What I'm saying is: so are fruits and leafy green vegetables. Someone up above was saying that meat should be avoided because producing it is hard on the environment. What I'm saying is that targeting meat is targeting the wrong attribute. People should be targeting cost per calorie. If you replace a meat-only diet with a fruit-only diet, it's more or less just as bad for the environment. Since meat and fruit cost about the same per calorie, they have about the same impact on the environment per calorie consumed, since the cost of food is a good proxy for the cost of the inputs to that food. (Yeah, I know cows emit a lot of methane; I'm aiming for a rule of thumb here.)
- pilom 10y ago
  "the cost of food is a good proxy for the cost of the inputs to that food." An "organic" apple probably has a lower energy cost than a factory farmed one even though it costs much more. It is more likely to be harvested by hand instead of by gas powered tree-shaker and net, it is more likely to be pesticide free than have a gas powered plane spray it with pesticides, etc. I don't see any evidence for "cost" and "energy required to produce" being as correlated as you claim. Also it doesn't matter because, at wholesale prices, $5 in beef is ALWAYS fewer calories than $5 in apples or carrots or lettuce or whatever plant you pick.
  - toasterlovin 10y ago
    Here are some calories/dollar calculations (and you can verify them using the links below): 1. Ground Beef - $3.725 per lb (in June 2016, according to the BLS[1]) - 971 calories per lb [2] - 260 calories per dollar 2. Lettuce - $2.029 per lb (also from the BLS, same link as above) - 77 calories per lb [3] - 38 calories per dollar 3. Apples - $1.444 per lb (also from the BLS, same link as above) - 235 calories per lb [4] - 162 calories per dollar The math doesn't lie. Lettuce is almost an order of magnitude more expensive per calorie than ground beef. And you can go look up other fruits or leafy green vegetables (I used two of the examples you provided), they basically all fall in this range. Some meats (mostly seafood) are more expensive per calorie than beef, some are less expensive (mostly poultry and pork). What it all boils down to, though, is that if you want to feed more people with the same amount of land/energy/whatever, you need to be looking at dairy (500-800 calories/$), oils (1200-2000 calories/$), and especially grains (> 2000 calories/$). There's a reason why the dawn of civilization coincided with agriculture and domestication of grains: grains are an incredibly cheap source of calories. Also, FYI, in the U.S. at least, organic food is not usually pesticide free. It just means that only "natural" pesticides are used. And harvesting things by hand is terrible for the environment. Humans are incredibly expensive and use tons of resources. After all, human generally want things like cars, climate controlled dwellings, and latest gizmos and gadgets, whereas a tractor could care less about these things :P. [1]: http://www.bls.gov/regions/mid-atlantic/data/averageretailfoodandenergyprices_usandnortheast_table.htm http://www.bls.gov/regions/mid-atlantic/data/averageretailfo... [2]: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/6197/2 http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/6197/2 [3]: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2475/2 http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable... [4]: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1809/5 http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/...

by pilom 10y ago

toasterlovin 10y ago

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I agree that meat in general, and beef in particular, is input intensive. What I'm saying is: so are fruits and leafy green vegetables. Someone up above was saying that meat should be avoided because producing it is hard on the environment. What I'm saying is that targeting meat is targeting the wrong attribute. People should be targeting cost per calorie. If you replace a meat-only diet with a fruit-only diet, it's more or less just as bad for the environment. Since meat and fruit cost about the same per calorie, they have about the same impact on the environment per calorie consumed, since the cost of food is a good proxy for the cost of the inputs to that food. (Yeah, I know cows emit a lot of methane; I'm aiming for a rule of thumb here.)

pilom 10y ago
"the cost of food is a good proxy for the cost of the inputs to that food." An "organic" apple probably has a lower energy cost than a factory farmed one even though it costs much more. It is more likely to be harvested by hand instead of by gas powered tree-shaker and net, it is more likely to be pesticide free than have a gas powered plane spray it with pesticides, etc. I don't see any evidence for "cost" and "energy required to produce" being as correlated as you claim. Also it doesn't matter because, at wholesale prices, $5 in beef is ALWAYS fewer calories than $5 in apples or carrots or lettuce or whatever plant you pick.
- toasterlovin 10y ago
  Here are some calories/dollar calculations (and you can verify them using the links below): 1. Ground Beef - $3.725 per lb (in June 2016, according to the BLS[1]) - 971 calories per lb [2] - 260 calories per dollar 2. Lettuce - $2.029 per lb (also from the BLS, same link as above) - 77 calories per lb [3] - 38 calories per dollar 3. Apples - $1.444 per lb (also from the BLS, same link as above) - 235 calories per lb [4] - 162 calories per dollar The math doesn't lie. Lettuce is almost an order of magnitude more expensive per calorie than ground beef. And you can go look up other fruits or leafy green vegetables (I used two of the examples you provided), they basically all fall in this range. Some meats (mostly seafood) are more expensive per calorie than beef, some are less expensive (mostly poultry and pork). What it all boils down to, though, is that if you want to feed more people with the same amount of land/energy/whatever, you need to be looking at dairy (500-800 calories/$), oils (1200-2000 calories/$), and especially grains (> 2000 calories/$). There's a reason why the dawn of civilization coincided with agriculture and domestication of grains: grains are an incredibly cheap source of calories. Also, FYI, in the U.S. at least, organic food is not usually pesticide free. It just means that only "natural" pesticides are used. And harvesting things by hand is terrible for the environment. Humans are incredibly expensive and use tons of resources. After all, human generally want things like cars, climate controlled dwellings, and latest gizmos and gadgets, whereas a tractor could care less about these things :P. [1]: http://www.bls.gov/regions/mid-atlantic/data/averageretailfoodandenergyprices_usandnortheast_table.htm http://www.bls.gov/regions/mid-atlantic/data/averageretailfo... [2]: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/6197/2 http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/6197/2 [3]: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2475/2 http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable... [4]: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1809/5 http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/...