10 ms·

This quote from Jony Ive really made me feel for the guy: “When you’re doing something for the first time, you don’t know it’s going to work. You spend seven o

by leonroy 10y ago

This quote from Jony Ive really made me feel for the guy: “When you’re doing something for the first time, you don’t know it’s going to work. You spend seven or eight years working on something, and then it’s copied. I have to be honest, the first thing I can think, all those weekends that I could have at home with my family but didn’t. I think it’s theft, and it’s lazy.” Xiaomi have done this to others. Their new air filter for example basically clones a Japanese design and sells it for a fraction of the price: http://www.gizmochina.com/2014/12/09/xiaomis-air-purifierborrowing-design-balmuda-airengine/ http://www.gizmochina.com/2014/12/09/xiaomis-air-purifierbor...

nullcipher 10y ago
I don't know if he actually said that but isn't all innovation incremental? I understand he put his heart and soul into it, but there has been tons of people who have worked equally hard before him to get to where he got (Apple itself copied it's UI from Xerox). Apple has also blatantly copied and consumed many companies in the past. There is so much code copied around these days. This is all just the way it is and how we have decided to move ahead as a society. Making judgments on others is uncalled for.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- leonroy 10y ago
  > I don't know if he actually said that but isn't all innovation incremental? He said exactly that: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/tech/2014/10/jony-ive-lessons-from-steve-jobs http://www.vanityfair.com/news/tech/2014/10/jony-ive-lessons... And yes innovation is incremental but this is Xiaomi not simply borrowing design cues but literally cloning a design. See for yourself - here's their take on Japanese company Balmuda's air purifier: https://www.balmuda.com/jp/airengine/ https://www.balmuda.com/jp/airengine/ Xiaomi's version: http://www.mi.com/en/air/ http://www.mi.com/en/air/
  - nullcipher 10y ago
    Other than the white color, they actually look different to me. That said, I can show you two editors which look completely alike. I hope you feel the same about them. Imagine if I said: Atom is such a rip off and the sublime guy must be feeling that GitHub is lazy and a thief. I wonder if GitHub compensated the sublime author who is a small indie dev! http://cache.filehippo.com/img/ex/2794__Sublime_text_2_1.png http://cache.filehippo.com/img/ex/2794__Sublime_text_2_1.png http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9QBldnFnock/U3PgeKnq-SI/AAAAAAAAStk/WJV5ZlxGKvo/s1600/atom-0950.png http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9QBldnFnock/U3PgeKnq-SI/AAAAAAAASt...
    - freyir 10y ago
      > Imagine if I said: Atom is such a rip off and the sublime guy must be feeling that GitHub is lazy and a thief. Edit: my original comment wasn't very constructive. My issue with the analogy is that Xiaomi openly copies the design of competing products that have gained success, at least in part, due to having differentiated designs. Usually they copy without providing even incremental innovation or product differentiation. In the case of Sublime Text vs. Atom, GitHub developed an editor with a fundamentally different underlying architecture. Github also made Atom open source, which addressed one of the main complaints against Sublime Text. Atom offered obvious and non-trivial product differentiation. Also, Xiaomi specifically targets products that have distinctive designs. Sublime Text's design doesn't look that distinctive. What are the components of the design (excluding configurable parameters like a light/dark theme) that Atom copied? The main similarity I see are the tabs, but neither look distinct from most other tabs (i.e., Chrome browser tabs).
      - nullcipher 10y ago
        Parent comment gave screenshots and claimed things are copied. I am also giving two screenshots and telling you that those are copied. What is the point I am missing?
        leonroy 10y ago
        Looks like Balmuda (original designer of the air purifier) is claiming the same: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2858592/xiaomi-faces-copycat-charge-from-japanese-company-over-new-air-purifier.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2858592/xiaomi-faces-copycat-...
- Aloha 10y ago
  Apple's UI and the UI from the Alto are while conceptually similar (insomuch as any two cars are conceptually similar), not even in the same family, in look, feel or user interaction - its a bit like comparing a Model T with a 39 Ford - while both are cars, the controls work in pretty dissimilar manners. Alto: http://s7.computerhistory.org/is/image/CHM/500004657-03-01?$re-medium$ http://s7.computerhistory.org/is/image/CHM/500004657-03-01?$... Lisa: http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/apple-lisa2xl/apple_lisa_screenshot.gif http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/apple-lisa2xl/ap... Mac System 1: http://applemuseum.bott.org/sections/images/screenshots/system1.1/desktop.gif http://applemuseum.bott.org/sections/images/screenshots/syst...
kbrwn 10y ago
"...I think it’s theft, and it’s lazy." Not reinventing the wheel is a great business strategy. Everyone copies everyone in the tech space. Apple didn't invent lightweight laptops.
- zghst 10y ago
  No but Apple innovated and made them a thing, after the Macbook Air, the PC industry scrambled to release ultrabooks (a new category then), after trying to push horrible netbooks on people.
  - xiaomai 10y ago
    Netbooks were actually great. I loved mine. It had 11 hours of battery life (this was around 2007 or 2008 when typical pc laptops were getting 2-4 hours). A lot of my classmates liked their netbooks too. The ultrabook is also fantastic, but much more expensive (I'm typing this on a $2000 ultrabook, my netbook was $200).
  - kbrwn 10y ago
    There were many popular netbooks before the MBA came out. Apple showed that there could be a popular high-end version with excellent build quality and now the market is responding with a cheaper model with the similar build quality. This isn't stealing. It is the standard model of almost every popular consumer electronic device since the 1980's.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ianai 10y ago
It's the void supposed to be filled by parent and copyright law. But it's of no use when China's government doesn't honor US company property.
anthony_barker 10y ago
Apple should tell that quote to Xerox for the Xerox Park rip off.. http://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/parc.html http://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/parc.html
- mwfunk 10y ago
  This would be analogous if the Mac was named the Apple Alto and looked like almost exactly like the Xerox Alto and even cloned the marketing materials and presentation templates that Xerox used, if Xerox had ever made the effort to come up with distinctive marketing for their computers (which they didn't, but that's the bar for "this situation is like that situation").
- astrodust 10y ago
  This is nowhere like a Mac other than in the fact that it's a computer with a screen, keyboard and mouse: http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-resto... Read history, then comment, okay? The PARC machine barely scratched the surface of what could be done, and it was far from being packaged in a way that could be marketed to consumers. It was inspiration, and any engineer knows that's a long, long way from a working product.
  - ProAm 10y ago
    Let's not act like Apple has not been known to steal ideas and package them with the Apple logo. It's just part of business.
    - astrodust 10y ago
      Usually they've caved in to the conventions of the market (iOS notifications) or missing features (F.lux). The amount of blatant theft seems minimal. They usually put their own spin on things to differentiate somehow. Even Microsoft has gone its own way with Windows after some heavy overlap with MacOS and other windowing systems (DESQview in partcular). Windows 3.1 was more different, and Windows 95 borrowed more heavily from OS/2, which was wildly different from MacOS. If anything Apple was forced to adopt the right-click menu popularized by Microsoft since it became the de-facto standard. Meanwhile other companies have damning memos that say "Make it look exactly like Apple's product".
paganel 10y ago
If it's got the same functionality and the same design as the Japanese product but only "sells at a fraction of the price" compared to the original product then they must be doing something better than the Japanese. It's either lower wages, better productivity or both, either way, it's better for us, consumers, which now have additional money to spend on other products and services which further enrich our lives (where additional money = Price of the Japanese product - Price of the Chinese product).
- nathanasmith 10y ago
  I would imagine at least some of the additional cost comes from putting in the work to create the original product in the first place. If Xiaomi can just come along and clone an already successful air filter with a proven market, it doesn't surprise me that they could sell it for less. And we do lose when companies stop taking risks in innovating new products for fear of the copycats.
  - paganel 10y ago
    If the Chinese company can easily clone a product and still deliver something bellow their competitor's product price I'd say the R&D costs for the original company were overblown. The Japanese company should have recouped their additional costs between the product launch and the Chinese company's product launch. If that interval was too short for them to do so it means that, as I said before, their "costs to create the product in the first place" were too high to begin with. For society's greater good we should put no premium on "I was here first/I did it first!", but only on "I build this product using less resources, hence it has the lowest price!".
    - rifung 10y ago
      > For society's greater good we should put no premium on "I was here first/I did it first!", but only on "I build this product using less resources, hence it has the lowest price!". I disagree completely. If we didn't care about being there first we wouldn't have patents, and without patents, why would companies bother spending any money on R&D? If you spend money on R&D, you have to recuperate those costs. If a competitor could just make an exact copy, then even if they made it in the same exact way that you did, they'd be able to sell it at a lower cost because they spent nothing on R&D. Patents aren't perfect, but they exist for a good reason: to promote innovation for "society's greater good"
digi_owl 10y ago
From the guy that is basically re-purposing 60s German designs...
Touche 10y ago
This is the difference between developers and designers. And why so few designers participate in open-source. I'll never understand designers. I don't mean that as a criticism, I literally don't understand the mindset. This is my problem for not understanding.
- nullcipher 10y ago
  Totally agree. I don't get this either. If someone copies my software work, I don't go around calling them lazy. Even I spent all my weekends on this lovely piece of code, only for someone else to "steal" it.
  - kentosi 10y ago
    What if that said someone copies your work you spent all your weekends working on and starts making a lot of money on it?
    - leojg 10y ago
      Then he/she clearly did something better than you. Had the insight that you lack.
      - optimuspaul 10y ago
        So you think it's ok to sit around wait for someone else to do all the hard work and then just copy what they did?
        Giorgi 10y ago
        you must be kidding, copying someone else's HARD work is not easy, especially if you have to reverse-engineer it. And if you do, good for you.
        gnahckire 10y ago
        Not if they cite their sources :)
whamlastxmas 10y ago
I am sick to death of patent trolls, frivolous copyright lawsuits, RIAA/MPAA bullying, the broken and ridiculous patent system, bullcrap like the DMCA, and how obviously bought our lawmakers are in terms of extending and broadening copyright laws. It really makes it impossible for me to have any sympathy for "victims" of copyright violations or patent infringement. They can go pound sand.
- tajen 10y ago
  This. Patents should be at most 5 years in IT, should they exist at all. The Macbook Air was first published in 2008. It's not a new idea anymore, not a new design, if you want to be the leader then create new products, and be happy if you're the one setting the trend for the whole design industry. For example Apple could remain first by creating an OS that customers trust. I wouldn't trust a Chinese design (not yet, for now) for my professional stuff because of malware, spy kits, bugs and even just the cheap materials.
gioele 10y ago
The same Jony Ive who blatantly copied so many Dieter Rams/Braun designs? http://b-i.forbesimg.com/anthonykosner/files/2013/11/jony-ive-and-braun-design.jpg http://b-i.forbesimg.com/anthonykosner/files/2013/11/jony-iv... (I'd use the phrase "has been inspired by and has applied to the contemporary times" instead of "copied", but if he likes that verb more...)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ksk 10y ago
Well, The value of that quote is directly proportional to what you think about Ive's work. Personally, I don't happen to think its all that great.
mahyarm 10y ago
TBH it just looks like a YAWUB (yet another windows ultrabook) at this point. Metal rectangle windows ultrabooks are pretty standard and the category inventor has been out since 2008.
slackwalker 10y ago
I'm not condoning what Xiaomi does, but he absolutely should question whether he's spending his time in a way that is ultimately satisfying. Maybe his regret indicates that he should have prioritized his family higher.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
In the 1970s and early 80s nearly everything produced in Japan was a crap copy of a US or European design. Motorcycles, cars, hifi (more lo-fi). Only later did they figure out how to make things reasonably well and start to innovate themselves. Now it's China's turn. In ten years it'll probably be someone else as Chinese development continues. Just as Hollywood got their start years ago.
tdkl 10y ago
Yeah and the poor guy is starving in the street right now. Give me a break. Apple will just have to lower the greedy margins a bit.

by leonroy 10y ago

nullcipher 10y ago

I don't know if he actually said that but isn't all innovation incremental? I understand he put his heart and soul into it, but there has been tons of people who have worked equally hard before him to get to where he got (Apple itself copied it's UI from Xerox). Apple has also blatantly copied and consumed many companies in the past. There is so much code copied around these days. This is all just the way it is and how we have decided to move ahead as a society. Making judgments on others is uncalled for.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
leonroy 10y ago
> I don't know if he actually said that but isn't all innovation incremental? He said exactly that: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/tech/2014/10/jony-ive-lessons-from-steve-jobs http://www.vanityfair.com/news/tech/2014/10/jony-ive-lessons... And yes innovation is incremental but this is Xiaomi not simply borrowing design cues but literally cloning a design. See for yourself - here's their take on Japanese company Balmuda's air purifier: https://www.balmuda.com/jp/airengine/ https://www.balmuda.com/jp/airengine/ Xiaomi's version: http://www.mi.com/en/air/ http://www.mi.com/en/air/
- nullcipher 10y ago
  Other than the white color, they actually look different to me. That said, I can show you two editors which look completely alike. I hope you feel the same about them. Imagine if I said: Atom is such a rip off and the sublime guy must be feeling that GitHub is lazy and a thief. I wonder if GitHub compensated the sublime author who is a small indie dev! http://cache.filehippo.com/img/ex/2794__Sublime_text_2_1.png http://cache.filehippo.com/img/ex/2794__Sublime_text_2_1.png http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9QBldnFnock/U3PgeKnq-SI/AAAAAAAAStk/WJV5ZlxGKvo/s1600/atom-0950.png http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9QBldnFnock/U3PgeKnq-SI/AAAAAAAASt...
  - freyir 10y ago
    > Imagine if I said: Atom is such a rip off and the sublime guy must be feeling that GitHub is lazy and a thief. Edit: my original comment wasn't very constructive. My issue with the analogy is that Xiaomi openly copies the design of competing products that have gained success, at least in part, due to having differentiated designs. Usually they copy without providing even incremental innovation or product differentiation. In the case of Sublime Text vs. Atom, GitHub developed an editor with a fundamentally different underlying architecture. Github also made Atom open source, which addressed one of the main complaints against Sublime Text. Atom offered obvious and non-trivial product differentiation. Also, Xiaomi specifically targets products that have distinctive designs. Sublime Text's design doesn't look that distinctive. What are the components of the design (excluding configurable parameters like a light/dark theme) that Atom copied? The main similarity I see are the tabs, but neither look distinct from most other tabs (i.e., Chrome browser tabs).
    - nullcipher 10y ago
      Parent comment gave screenshots and claimed things are copied. I am also giving two screenshots and telling you that those are copied. What is the point I am missing?
      - leonroy 10y ago
        Looks like Balmuda (original designer of the air purifier) is claiming the same: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2858592/xiaomi-faces-copycat-charge-from-japanese-company-over-new-air-purifier.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2858592/xiaomi-faces-copycat-...
Aloha 10y ago
Apple's UI and the UI from the Alto are while conceptually similar (insomuch as any two cars are conceptually similar), not even in the same family, in look, feel or user interaction - its a bit like comparing a Model T with a 39 Ford - while both are cars, the controls work in pretty dissimilar manners. Alto: http://s7.computerhistory.org/is/image/CHM/500004657-03-01?$re-medium$ http://s7.computerhistory.org/is/image/CHM/500004657-03-01?$... Lisa: http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/apple-lisa2xl/apple_lisa_screenshot.gif http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/apple-lisa2xl/ap... Mac System 1: http://applemuseum.bott.org/sections/images/screenshots/system1.1/desktop.gif http://applemuseum.bott.org/sections/images/screenshots/syst...

kbrwn 10y ago

"...I think it’s theft, and it’s lazy." Not reinventing the wheel is a great business strategy. Everyone copies everyone in the tech space. Apple didn't invent lightweight laptops.

zghst 10y ago
No but Apple innovated and made them a thing, after the Macbook Air, the PC industry scrambled to release ultrabooks (a new category then), after trying to push horrible netbooks on people.
- xiaomai 10y ago
  Netbooks were actually great. I loved mine. It had 11 hours of battery life (this was around 2007 or 2008 when typical pc laptops were getting 2-4 hours). A lot of my classmates liked their netbooks too. The ultrabook is also fantastic, but much more expensive (I'm typing this on a $2000 ultrabook, my netbook was $200).
- kbrwn 10y ago
  There were many popular netbooks before the MBA came out. Apple showed that there could be a popular high-end version with excellent build quality and now the market is responding with a cheaper model with the similar build quality. This isn't stealing. It is the standard model of almost every popular consumer electronic device since the 1980's.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

ianai 10y ago

It's the void supposed to be filled by parent and copyright law. But it's of no use when China's government doesn't honor US company property.

anthony_barker 10y ago

Apple should tell that quote to Xerox for the Xerox Park rip off.. http://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/parc.html http://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/parc.html

mwfunk 10y ago
This would be analogous if the Mac was named the Apple Alto and looked like almost exactly like the Xerox Alto and even cloned the marketing materials and presentation templates that Xerox used, if Xerox had ever made the effort to come up with distinctive marketing for their computers (which they didn't, but that's the bar for "this situation is like that situation").
astrodust 10y ago
This is nowhere like a Mac other than in the fact that it's a computer with a screen, keyboard and mouse: http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-resto... Read history, then comment, okay? The PARC machine barely scratched the surface of what could be done, and it was far from being packaged in a way that could be marketed to consumers. It was inspiration, and any engineer knows that's a long, long way from a working product.
- ProAm 10y ago
  Let's not act like Apple has not been known to steal ideas and package them with the Apple logo. It's just part of business.
  - astrodust 10y ago
    Usually they've caved in to the conventions of the market (iOS notifications) or missing features (F.lux). The amount of blatant theft seems minimal. They usually put their own spin on things to differentiate somehow. Even Microsoft has gone its own way with Windows after some heavy overlap with MacOS and other windowing systems (DESQview in partcular). Windows 3.1 was more different, and Windows 95 borrowed more heavily from OS/2, which was wildly different from MacOS. If anything Apple was forced to adopt the right-click menu popularized by Microsoft since it became the de-facto standard. Meanwhile other companies have damning memos that say "Make it look exactly like Apple's product".

paganel 10y ago

If it's got the same functionality and the same design as the Japanese product but only "sells at a fraction of the price" compared to the original product then they must be doing something better than the Japanese. It's either lower wages, better productivity or both, either way, it's better for us, consumers, which now have additional money to spend on other products and services which further enrich our lives (where additional money = Price of the Japanese product - Price of the Chinese product).

nathanasmith 10y ago
I would imagine at least some of the additional cost comes from putting in the work to create the original product in the first place. If Xiaomi can just come along and clone an already successful air filter with a proven market, it doesn't surprise me that they could sell it for less. And we do lose when companies stop taking risks in innovating new products for fear of the copycats.
- paganel 10y ago
  If the Chinese company can easily clone a product and still deliver something bellow their competitor's product price I'd say the R&D costs for the original company were overblown. The Japanese company should have recouped their additional costs between the product launch and the Chinese company's product launch. If that interval was too short for them to do so it means that, as I said before, their "costs to create the product in the first place" were too high to begin with. For society's greater good we should put no premium on "I was here first/I did it first!", but only on "I build this product using less resources, hence it has the lowest price!".
  - rifung 10y ago
    > For society's greater good we should put no premium on "I was here first/I did it first!", but only on "I build this product using less resources, hence it has the lowest price!". I disagree completely. If we didn't care about being there first we wouldn't have patents, and without patents, why would companies bother spending any money on R&D? If you spend money on R&D, you have to recuperate those costs. If a competitor could just make an exact copy, then even if they made it in the same exact way that you did, they'd be able to sell it at a lower cost because they spent nothing on R&D. Patents aren't perfect, but they exist for a good reason: to promote innovation for "society's greater good"

digi_owl 10y ago

From the guy that is basically re-purposing 60s German designs...

Touche 10y ago

This is the difference between developers and designers. And why so few designers participate in open-source. I'll never understand designers. I don't mean that as a criticism, I literally don't understand the mindset. This is my problem for not understanding.

nullcipher 10y ago
Totally agree. I don't get this either. If someone copies my software work, I don't go around calling them lazy. Even I spent all my weekends on this lovely piece of code, only for someone else to "steal" it.
- kentosi 10y ago
  What if that said someone copies your work you spent all your weekends working on and starts making a lot of money on it?
  - leojg 10y ago
    Then he/she clearly did something better than you. Had the insight that you lack.
    - optimuspaul 10y ago
      So you think it's ok to sit around wait for someone else to do all the hard work and then just copy what they did?
      - Giorgi 10y ago
        you must be kidding, copying someone else's HARD work is not easy, especially if you have to reverse-engineer it. And if you do, good for you.
      - gnahckire 10y ago
        Not if they cite their sources :)

whamlastxmas 10y ago

I am sick to death of patent trolls, frivolous copyright lawsuits, RIAA/MPAA bullying, the broken and ridiculous patent system, bullcrap like the DMCA, and how obviously bought our lawmakers are in terms of extending and broadening copyright laws. It really makes it impossible for me to have any sympathy for "victims" of copyright violations or patent infringement. They can go pound sand.

tajen 10y ago
This. Patents should be at most 5 years in IT, should they exist at all. The Macbook Air was first published in 2008. It's not a new idea anymore, not a new design, if you want to be the leader then create new products, and be happy if you're the one setting the trend for the whole design industry. For example Apple could remain first by creating an OS that customers trust. I wouldn't trust a Chinese design (not yet, for now) for my professional stuff because of malware, spy kits, bugs and even just the cheap materials.

gioele 10y ago

The same Jony Ive who blatantly copied so many Dieter Rams/Braun designs? http://b-i.forbesimg.com/anthonykosner/files/2013/11/jony-ive-and-braun-design.jpg http://b-i.forbesimg.com/anthonykosner/files/2013/11/jony-iv... (I'd use the phrase "has been inspired by and has applied to the contemporary times" instead of "copied", but if he likes that verb more...)

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

ksk 10y ago

Well, The value of that quote is directly proportional to what you think about Ive's work. Personally, I don't happen to think its all that great.

mahyarm 10y ago

TBH it just looks like a YAWUB (yet another windows ultrabook) at this point. Metal rectangle windows ultrabooks are pretty standard and the category inventor has been out since 2008.

slackwalker 10y ago

I'm not condoning what Xiaomi does, but he absolutely should question whether he's spending his time in a way that is ultimately satisfying. Maybe his regret indicates that he should have prioritized his family higher.

anexprogrammer 10y ago

In the 1970s and early 80s nearly everything produced in Japan was a crap copy of a US or European design. Motorcycles, cars, hifi (more lo-fi). Only later did they figure out how to make things reasonably well and start to innovate themselves. Now it's China's turn. In ten years it'll probably be someone else as Chinese development continues. Just as Hollywood got their start years ago.

tdkl 10y ago

Yeah and the poor guy is starving in the street right now. Give me a break. Apple will just have to lower the greedy margins a bit.