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Yes, these things are important to both men and women. But the female engineers I know make it a higher priority in their job searches because they've been bur

by luchak 17y ago

Yes, these things are important to both men and women. But the female engineers I know make it a higher priority in their job searches because they've been burned this way before, in work and in school -- specifically because they are women. I don't know any male engineers who feel that they've been in situations, in the context of engineering, where they were systematically dismissed because they were men. I mean, you hardly need a locker room atmosphere to turn women away. Plenty of little things can contribute. Maybe you have a guy who constantly fawns over one particular coworker. Maybe the team has grown to expect that the women will bring the bagels on Friday mornings. Maybe the labels "emotional" or "too sensitive" stick a little too easily. Maybe t-shirts at work events only tend to show up in men's M-XL. Maybe another group tends to explain things to the new female engineer in very small words, implicitly not acknowledging her as a peer. Whatever. Here's the thing: you need to be sure that the women in your workplace are comfortable telling you these things. As a man, it can be hard to realize that there are problems when the work environment is 90% men. Why? Because you're not on the receiving end of all the bullshit, most of the stereotypes and cultural norms work in your favor, and most of the people you know are the same way. Very few men are thinking, "man, I wish I could make women feel unvalued." Most of the toxic behavior happens out of apathy or ignorance. But, even then, most little problems, in isolation, are just that: little problems in search of solutions. Unfortunately, when women do speak up, what they often hear is, "I don't see the problem. That's never happened to me. I think you're overreacting." That response is, I would venture, why having another woman on the team is reassuring: because she probably would see the problem, it probably has happened to her. That response is why women in engineering want to know they'll have someone (male or female) willing to back them up, or at least to listen: because they're used to having to go it alone.

jamesbritt 17y ago
" But the female engineers I know make it a higher priority in their job searches because they've been burned this way before, in work and in school -- specifically because they are women." How do they all know that it was specifically because they are women?
- luchak 17y ago
  It's not like somebody's sitting there saying, "hey, it's a woman -- I should make her miserable." It's more like there's a category of crap that ends up shoved at you if you're female, but not if you're male. There's another category that men deal with too, but it's much more potent when you're a small minority of the population. And, I mean, come on, some of these things: the attractive=stupid stereotype, the facile labeling of some women as irrational, being mistaken for secretaries or assumed to be non-technical staff ... these play upon stereotypes and cultural norms that apply specifically to women. In other words: because most of these things don't apply to men. And because, when women try to explain what's happening, one of the most frequent reactions they get from men is, "what are you talking about?" (Or the related, "oh, but that happens to me too," followed by a spurious equivalence.) So, look, if you really want to get into the details, there's a limit to what I can tell you. I'm male, so I'm not speaking from my own experience. If you're genuinely curious, ask some female engineers. Not all of them will feel the way I've described, but I've talked to enough to know that I'm not totally off-base. The main thing is, if you want to know, you have to be willing to actually listen and accept that they have had experiences different from yours. Even if you disagree with them, try to hold off on going into debate mode; they've probably done that too many times before and are tired of it.

by luchak 17y ago

jamesbritt 17y ago

" But the female engineers I know make it a higher priority in their job searches because they've been burned this way before, in work and in school -- specifically because they are women." How do they all know that it was specifically because they are women?

luchak 17y ago
It's not like somebody's sitting there saying, "hey, it's a woman -- I should make her miserable." It's more like there's a category of crap that ends up shoved at you if you're female, but not if you're male. There's another category that men deal with too, but it's much more potent when you're a small minority of the population. And, I mean, come on, some of these things: the attractive=stupid stereotype, the facile labeling of some women as irrational, being mistaken for secretaries or assumed to be non-technical staff ... these play upon stereotypes and cultural norms that apply specifically to women. In other words: because most of these things don't apply to men. And because, when women try to explain what's happening, one of the most frequent reactions they get from men is, "what are you talking about?" (Or the related, "oh, but that happens to me too," followed by a spurious equivalence.) So, look, if you really want to get into the details, there's a limit to what I can tell you. I'm male, so I'm not speaking from my own experience. If you're genuinely curious, ask some female engineers. Not all of them will feel the way I've described, but I've talked to enough to know that I'm not totally off-base. The main thing is, if you want to know, you have to be willing to actually listen and accept that they have had experiences different from yours. Even if you disagree with them, try to hold off on going into debate mode; they've probably done that too many times before and are tired of it.