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> For instance, like for like (new construction in the most desirable neighborhoods), Boston housing is just as expensive as SF No it's not. It's not even clo

by dpark 10y ago

> For instance, like for like (new construction in the most desirable neighborhoods), Boston housing is just as expensive as SF No it's not. It's not even close. The median home in Boston is less than $500k. That's a gut/teardown in SF, where the median is $1.1MM. If you pick brand new construction in the most desirable neighborhoods in Boston, I'm sure you could easily spend north of a million. If you pick comparable new construction in the most desirable neighborhoods in SF, I imagine you're looking at multiple millions. http://www.zillow.com/boston-ma/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/boston-ma/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/sanfrancisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/sanfrancisco-ca/home-values/ > in general your money goes further in SF. In what way?

seattle_spring 10y ago
Every time SF housing prices come up, someone comes out of the woodwork to say how (Boston | Seattle | Austin) is just as expensive or even worse. They then compare some 1500 sq ft penthouse in the nicest, newest tower in their city to some slightly less expensive 19th century shithole of the same price in SF and say, "LOOK! Look! It's more expensive in my city! And MILK is 50% more here too, so it's way more expensive to live here obviously." Every. Time.
- dpark 10y ago
  I did enjoy the fact that "like for like" somehow explicitly means the best of the best in Boston.
  - djb_hackernews 10y ago
    FWIW I was comparing like for like in both cities. I compared Back Bay new construction to SoMA new construction. Fact is, your money does go further in SF. It isn't intuitive because most of the housing stock in Boston is old, cramped, or needs significant repair...or all 3. But that doesn't come across when you compare aggregate sqft prices, it just looks like Boston is cheaper.
    - dpark 10y ago
      > FWIW I was comparing like for like in both cities. I compared Back Bay new construction to SoMA new construction. Back Bay is the most expensive neighborhood in Boston. If you want to compare to SF, then SoMA is probably not the appropriate neighborhood. There are several neighborhoods in SF that cost multiples of Back Bay. * Back Bay: $863,200 * Pacific Heights: $1,877,500 * Noe Valley: $1,652,100 * Russian Hill: $1,593,600 If you actually want to compare "like for like", let's look at a really expensive SF neighborhood. * Presidio Heights: $4,911,300 > Fact is, your money does go further in SF. It isn't intuitive because most of the housing stock in Boston is old, cramped, or needs significant repair...or all 3. But that doesn't come across when you compare aggregate sqft prices, it just looks like Boston is cheaper. Isn't most of the housing in every major city old, cramped, and in need of repair? SF has plenty of old, cramped housing that costs a million dollars. You can't cherry-pick the absolute top-end of the Boston market and compare it to an average neighborhood in SF. With that logic, Seattle is more expensive than SF, too. Windermere price index is $1,239,600 vs $945,000 in SoMA. -- * http://www.zillow.com/back-bay-boston-ma/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/back-bay-boston-ma/home-values/ * http://www.zillow.com/pacific-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/pacific-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-... * http://www.zillow.com/noe-valley-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/noe-valley-san-francisco-ca/home-value... * http://www.zillow.com/russian-hill-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/russian-hill-san-francisco-ca/home-val... * http://www.zillow.com/presidio-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/presidio-heights-san-francisco-ca/home... * http://www.zillow.com/windermere-seattle-wa/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/windermere-seattle-wa/home-values/ * http://www.zillow.com/south-of-market-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/south-of-market-san-francisco-ca/home-...
      - djb_hackernews 10y ago
        I think at this point it is fair to say you are being uncharitable in your interpretation of my point. I'll point out to things I take issue with your analysis: 1) The neighborhoods you are using to illustrate your point are tiny 2) I'll entertain this though. Looking at all properties currently for sale on redfin in Presidio Heights and comparing the per square foot price to Back Bay, they are about the same. In fact, the outliers are way more expensive in Boston. The most expensive in BB is $8.7M and gets you 2700 sqft. The most expensive in Presidio Heights is $11M and gets you 7000 sqft! For 25% more money you get 160% more living space in a private home with private outdoor space. This isn't a phenomenon isolated to the most expensive neighborhoods either. I used Back Bay and SoMA because I think they are comparable in that they are the most desirable neighborhoods for people that want to live in the city. I haven't spent much time in Presidio Heights but it feels more like Brookline, which is great but people don't live there if they want to be able to have 50 restaurants within stones throw and easy access to public transportation and even then Brookline is a difficult comparison for many reasons. I hope that you can understand that my argument isn't that Boston is more expensive than SF on purchase price terms but that your money actually goes further in SF on a per square foot and amenities basis. I know it's not intuitive when Zillow is telling you that SF is more expensive than Boston in pure dollar terms but they don't answer the question of what does that extra money buy you and the answer is extremely tangible benefits.
djb_hackernews 10y ago
Notice that I said like for like. If you compare new construction in the most desirable neighborhoods in both cities[0][1] SF comes out cheaper and/or your money goes further. ie, SF might be slightly more expensive but your building has 24/7 security, roof top pool, common outdoor space, etc. EDIT: A further comparison of the age of the housing stock, looking at properties currently listed within both city limits, ~33% of them in Boston were built before 1900, 8% of them in SF were built before 1900. To me this means overall the housing stock is more modern in SF which likely benefits the homeowner in energy costs, modern systems, safety, total square footage, etc. [0] https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/293571/MA/Boston/Back-Bay/filter/sort=hi-dollarsqft,min-year-built=2005 https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/293571/MA/Boston/Back-Ba... [1] https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/11212/CA/San-Francisco/SoMa/filter/sort=hi-dollarsqft,min-year-built=2005 https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/11212/CA/San-Francisco/S...
- dpark 10y ago
  SoMA is not the most desireable area in SF. Many areas in SF are considerably more expensive. Presidio Heights is one of the top neighborhoods, and has a home price index on Zillow of nearly $5MM. You can't even compare new construction because there is none for sale. https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/2197/CA/San-Francisco/Presidio-Heights-San-Francisco-CA/filter/sort=hi-dollarsqft https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/2197/CA/San-Francisco/Pr... For the record, doing the "most expensive" or "most desirable" comparison is pointless anyway. The most expensive neighborhood is not representative of the typical home price, or even the typical desirable home price.

by dpark 10y ago

seattle_spring 10y ago

Every time SF housing prices come up, someone comes out of the woodwork to say how (Boston | Seattle | Austin) is just as expensive or even worse. They then compare some 1500 sq ft penthouse in the nicest, newest tower in their city to some slightly less expensive 19th century shithole of the same price in SF and say, "LOOK! Look! It's more expensive in my city! And MILK is 50% more here too, so it's way more expensive to live here obviously." Every. Time.

dpark 10y ago
I did enjoy the fact that "like for like" somehow explicitly means the best of the best in Boston.
- djb_hackernews 10y ago
  FWIW I was comparing like for like in both cities. I compared Back Bay new construction to SoMA new construction. Fact is, your money does go further in SF. It isn't intuitive because most of the housing stock in Boston is old, cramped, or needs significant repair...or all 3. But that doesn't come across when you compare aggregate sqft prices, it just looks like Boston is cheaper.
  - dpark 10y ago
    > FWIW I was comparing like for like in both cities. I compared Back Bay new construction to SoMA new construction. Back Bay is the most expensive neighborhood in Boston. If you want to compare to SF, then SoMA is probably not the appropriate neighborhood. There are several neighborhoods in SF that cost multiples of Back Bay. * Back Bay: $863,200 * Pacific Heights: $1,877,500 * Noe Valley: $1,652,100 * Russian Hill: $1,593,600 If you actually want to compare "like for like", let's look at a really expensive SF neighborhood. * Presidio Heights: $4,911,300 > Fact is, your money does go further in SF. It isn't intuitive because most of the housing stock in Boston is old, cramped, or needs significant repair...or all 3. But that doesn't come across when you compare aggregate sqft prices, it just looks like Boston is cheaper. Isn't most of the housing in every major city old, cramped, and in need of repair? SF has plenty of old, cramped housing that costs a million dollars. You can't cherry-pick the absolute top-end of the Boston market and compare it to an average neighborhood in SF. With that logic, Seattle is more expensive than SF, too. Windermere price index is $1,239,600 vs $945,000 in SoMA. -- * http://www.zillow.com/back-bay-boston-ma/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/back-bay-boston-ma/home-values/ * http://www.zillow.com/pacific-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/pacific-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-... * http://www.zillow.com/noe-valley-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/noe-valley-san-francisco-ca/home-value... * http://www.zillow.com/russian-hill-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/russian-hill-san-francisco-ca/home-val... * http://www.zillow.com/presidio-heights-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/presidio-heights-san-francisco-ca/home... * http://www.zillow.com/windermere-seattle-wa/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/windermere-seattle-wa/home-values/ * http://www.zillow.com/south-of-market-san-francisco-ca/home-values/ http://www.zillow.com/south-of-market-san-francisco-ca/home-...
    - djb_hackernews 10y ago
      I think at this point it is fair to say you are being uncharitable in your interpretation of my point. I'll point out to things I take issue with your analysis: 1) The neighborhoods you are using to illustrate your point are tiny 2) I'll entertain this though. Looking at all properties currently for sale on redfin in Presidio Heights and comparing the per square foot price to Back Bay, they are about the same. In fact, the outliers are way more expensive in Boston. The most expensive in BB is $8.7M and gets you 2700 sqft. The most expensive in Presidio Heights is $11M and gets you 7000 sqft! For 25% more money you get 160% more living space in a private home with private outdoor space. This isn't a phenomenon isolated to the most expensive neighborhoods either. I used Back Bay and SoMA because I think they are comparable in that they are the most desirable neighborhoods for people that want to live in the city. I haven't spent much time in Presidio Heights but it feels more like Brookline, which is great but people don't live there if they want to be able to have 50 restaurants within stones throw and easy access to public transportation and even then Brookline is a difficult comparison for many reasons. I hope that you can understand that my argument isn't that Boston is more expensive than SF on purchase price terms but that your money actually goes further in SF on a per square foot and amenities basis. I know it's not intuitive when Zillow is telling you that SF is more expensive than Boston in pure dollar terms but they don't answer the question of what does that extra money buy you and the answer is extremely tangible benefits.

djb_hackernews 10y ago

Notice that I said like for like. If you compare new construction in the most desirable neighborhoods in both cities[0][1] SF comes out cheaper and/or your money goes further. ie, SF might be slightly more expensive but your building has 24/7 security, roof top pool, common outdoor space, etc. EDIT: A further comparison of the age of the housing stock, looking at properties currently listed within both city limits, ~33% of them in Boston were built before 1900, 8% of them in SF were built before 1900. To me this means overall the housing stock is more modern in SF which likely benefits the homeowner in energy costs, modern systems, safety, total square footage, etc. [0] https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/293571/MA/Boston/Back-Bay/filter/sort=hi-dollarsqft,min-year-built=2005 https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/293571/MA/Boston/Back-Ba... [1] https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/11212/CA/San-Francisco/SoMa/filter/sort=hi-dollarsqft,min-year-built=2005 https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/11212/CA/San-Francisco/S...

dpark 10y ago
SoMA is not the most desireable area in SF. Many areas in SF are considerably more expensive. Presidio Heights is one of the top neighborhoods, and has a home price index on Zillow of nearly $5MM. You can't even compare new construction because there is none for sale. https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/2197/CA/San-Francisco/Presidio-Heights-San-Francisco-CA/filter/sort=hi-dollarsqft https://www.redfin.com/neighborhood/2197/CA/San-Francisco/Pr... For the record, doing the "most expensive" or "most desirable" comparison is pointless anyway. The most expensive neighborhood is not representative of the typical home price, or even the typical desirable home price.