22 ms·

Our statement on the results of the Jacob Appelbaum investigation

100 points by ejcx 10y ago

Overtonwindow 10y ago
Putting the court of public opinion aside for a moment, I think it's good for a company to hire an outside investigator to get to the truth, but I'm also concerned that when you get right down to it, it's the company that is to be protected. Yes they may get rid of bad employees, yes they may project a transparent investigation and its results, but at the end of the day it doesn't really do much for the people involved. It only serves to protect the company. Out of this I would like to see Tor and other silicon valley companies focus more on protecting the rights of employees, both those harmed, and those accused, until all the evidence is in, and then take steps to remedy the situation for those employees. So many of these investigations, from GitHub and Go Grid, to now Tor, is about protecting the companies and their executives. Only when that changes will things be better.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  "Tor" is not a company. The Tor Project is an international organization responsible only to its members, not to any investors.
- niij 10y ago
  Do you know anything about Tor? Because they're not a company responsible to their "executives", they're a non-profit. Although it may shock you: the world doesn't revolve around the startup scene in San Fransisco.
Kinnard 10y ago
Does this bring to mind for anyone else movements crumbling from the inside due to clever sabotage? Huey Newton come to mind? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party#COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party#COINTELPRO I'm not saying that's what's going on here. But it comes to mind.
- Analemma_ 10y ago
  > I'm not saying that's what's going on here. But it comes to mind. Stop with this Fox News bullshit. If you have a theory about what's happening here, own it - enough of these "I'm not saying... " non-accusation accusations.
  - Kinnard 10y ago
    I'm actually not informed enough to make any accusations. But I can say what reading about this brings to mind.
    - VonGuard 10y ago
      Totally unrelated. The Panthers were actually taking charge of their own community to police it because the police would not. They fed the hungry and took care of the poor in their communities because people would not. The FBI then ruined them by selling them illegal guns through Richard Aoki, and arresting the people who bought the guns. Jake, on the other hand, talked at conferences and took credit for tech work. Then he raped some people. Plus, he's one dood. Sooooooo, no, no similarities at all, actually.
      - wolfgke 10y ago
        > Then he raped some people. Some people claimed that Jake raped them. Up to now it is his word against hers.
      - Kinnard 10y ago
        There was an active campaign of misinformation by the FBI to turn Panthers against each other and discredit Party members. It worked too . . . Again, I'm not arguing that's what's going on here
        dublinben 10y ago
        >Again, I'm not arguing that's what's going on here Then why bring it up in the first place?
Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
This sort of thing really merits a judicial investigation. It's not appropriate to place these issues in the eyes of the public until then, and I've never appreciated these sorts of articles in my feed. Some will be swayed by the fact that the internal investigation turned up some legitimate claims, but if the judicial system disagrees then this guy's life is already ruined, and I don't think that's appropriate. The whole situation reflects poorly on everyone involved.
- dublinben 10y ago
  >This sort of thing really merits a judicial investigation The victims involved in this have specifically asked this to not happen. I'm sure you can understand why the members of a community like this would have personal or political reasons to avoid a judicial investigation.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
    I don't buy that. This sort of event will ruin Jacob's life. You think there's any chance he'll ever get a job again? I think you have to be held accountable, legally, if you want to bring forward acusations that can do that.
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      My answer to this is very simple: It is a property of a state of law that no one is to be considered guilty unless it can be proved by a court. In this sense Jacob Appelbaum is to be considered innocent.
      - wavefunction 10y ago
        That's not true under Napoleonic code.
      - jethro_tell 10y ago
        Legally, he is considered innocent. No charges have been brought forward, and no legal investigation is under way. It is the right of most organizations in most states/countries to exclude people of their choosing. They have verified a couple complaints and decided he was enough like a person they wanted to exclude. Which it sounds like he was doing from his side as well. So I'd say that legally, he is being considered innocent. This is like 'I can say whatever I want without the consequences of my peers because of the first amendment.' The right to free speech and the right to be innocent until proven guilty apply to a citizens relationship with the government.
fdsaaf 10y ago
The people who are the brains behind the project can always fork. An organization that's turned inward and primarily concerns itself with rules, codes of conduct, procedures, and investigations will always lose to an organization full of people who are passionate about the problem and the code.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  Haha that's funny, imagining this self-aggrandizing asshole forking Tor and then getting anything done. [EDIT: still I upvoted, because every other top-level comment is bonkers.]
  - fdsaaf 10y ago
    The pattern I've seen over and over again is you have a core group of creators who are talented, but prickly or obnoxious in some way. The project creators spend years of their lives building the project and making it successful. Then others come into the project, and use real or imagined personal offenses to boot the creators out of the project. These usurpers don't have talent, but because the project is successful already, the impact of booting the creators doesn't become apparent for a while. The project, however, cut off from its engine, stagnates and dies. Best example? Apple. Maybe Appelbaum bucks this trend by not having the talent to balance his flaws. I don't know. But I'm pattern-matching against the phenomenon I described above, and so far, it looks like a perfect match.
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      Appelbaum had a fair number of commits, 2008-2011. [0] There isn't much recently, and overall one doesn't get the impression that he'll be able to transition from his recent evangelist role to that of a hard-charging developer of his own fork. [0] https://github.com/torproject/tor/graphs/contributors https://github.com/torproject/tor/graphs/contributors
specialist 10y ago
From the blog post: "The investigation also identified two additional people as having engaged in inappropriate conduct, and they are no longer involved with the Tor Project." Damn. This effort feels like the kind of deep introspection that every organization should undertake. Every org has their bad apples. But as of yet, there's no norms for addressing them. "code of conduct", etc Thank you. This is excellent news. These types of innovations in governance will become the norm. Thank you for leading the way.

100 points by ejcx 10y ago

Putting the court of public opinion aside for a moment, I think it's good for a company to hire an outside investigator to get to the truth, but I'm also concerned that when you get right down to it, it's the company that is to be protected. Yes they may get rid of bad employees, yes they may project a transparent investigation and its results, but at the end of the day it doesn't really do much for the people involved. It only serves to protect the company. Out of this I would like to see Tor and other silicon valley companies focus more on protecting the rights of employees, both those harmed, and those accused, until all the evidence is in, and then take steps to remedy the situation for those employees. So many of these investigations, from GitHub and Go Grid, to now Tor, is about protecting the companies and their executives. Only when that changes will things be better.

jessaustin 10y ago
"Tor" is not a company. The Tor Project is an international organization responsible only to its members, not to any investors.
niij 10y ago
Do you know anything about Tor? Because they're not a company responsible to their "executives", they're a non-profit. Although it may shock you: the world doesn't revolve around the startup scene in San Fransisco.

Kinnard 10y ago

Does this bring to mind for anyone else movements crumbling from the inside due to clever sabotage? Huey Newton come to mind? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party#COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party#COINTELPRO I'm not saying that's what's going on here. But it comes to mind.

Analemma_ 10y ago
> I'm not saying that's what's going on here. But it comes to mind. Stop with this Fox News bullshit. If you have a theory about what's happening here, own it - enough of these "I'm not saying... " non-accusation accusations.
- Kinnard 10y ago
  I'm actually not informed enough to make any accusations. But I can say what reading about this brings to mind.
  - VonGuard 10y ago
    Totally unrelated. The Panthers were actually taking charge of their own community to police it because the police would not. They fed the hungry and took care of the poor in their communities because people would not. The FBI then ruined them by selling them illegal guns through Richard Aoki, and arresting the people who bought the guns. Jake, on the other hand, talked at conferences and took credit for tech work. Then he raped some people. Plus, he's one dood. Sooooooo, no, no similarities at all, actually.
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      > Then he raped some people. Some people claimed that Jake raped them. Up to now it is his word against hers.
    - Kinnard 10y ago
      There was an active campaign of misinformation by the FBI to turn Panthers against each other and discredit Party members. It worked too . . . Again, I'm not arguing that's what's going on here
      - dublinben 10y ago
        >Again, I'm not arguing that's what's going on here Then why bring it up in the first place?

Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago

This sort of thing really merits a judicial investigation. It's not appropriate to place these issues in the eyes of the public until then, and I've never appreciated these sorts of articles in my feed. Some will be swayed by the fact that the internal investigation turned up some legitimate claims, but if the judicial system disagrees then this guy's life is already ruined, and I don't think that's appropriate. The whole situation reflects poorly on everyone involved.

dublinben 10y ago
>This sort of thing really merits a judicial investigation The victims involved in this have specifically asked this to not happen. I'm sure you can understand why the members of a community like this would have personal or political reasons to avoid a judicial investigation.
- Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
  I don't buy that. This sort of event will ruin Jacob's life. You think there's any chance he'll ever get a job again? I think you have to be held accountable, legally, if you want to bring forward acusations that can do that.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    My answer to this is very simple: It is a property of a state of law that no one is to be considered guilty unless it can be proved by a court. In this sense Jacob Appelbaum is to be considered innocent.
    - wavefunction 10y ago
      That's not true under Napoleonic code.
    - jethro_tell 10y ago
      Legally, he is considered innocent. No charges have been brought forward, and no legal investigation is under way. It is the right of most organizations in most states/countries to exclude people of their choosing. They have verified a couple complaints and decided he was enough like a person they wanted to exclude. Which it sounds like he was doing from his side as well. So I'd say that legally, he is being considered innocent. This is like 'I can say whatever I want without the consequences of my peers because of the first amendment.' The right to free speech and the right to be innocent until proven guilty apply to a citizens relationship with the government.

fdsaaf 10y ago

The people who are the brains behind the project can always fork. An organization that's turned inward and primarily concerns itself with rules, codes of conduct, procedures, and investigations will always lose to an organization full of people who are passionate about the problem and the code.

jessaustin 10y ago
Haha that's funny, imagining this self-aggrandizing asshole forking Tor and then getting anything done. [EDIT: still I upvoted, because every other top-level comment is bonkers.]
- fdsaaf 10y ago
  The pattern I've seen over and over again is you have a core group of creators who are talented, but prickly or obnoxious in some way. The project creators spend years of their lives building the project and making it successful. Then others come into the project, and use real or imagined personal offenses to boot the creators out of the project. These usurpers don't have talent, but because the project is successful already, the impact of booting the creators doesn't become apparent for a while. The project, however, cut off from its engine, stagnates and dies. Best example? Apple. Maybe Appelbaum bucks this trend by not having the talent to balance his flaws. I don't know. But I'm pattern-matching against the phenomenon I described above, and so far, it looks like a perfect match.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    Appelbaum had a fair number of commits, 2008-2011. [0] There isn't much recently, and overall one doesn't get the impression that he'll be able to transition from his recent evangelist role to that of a hard-charging developer of his own fork. [0] https://github.com/torproject/tor/graphs/contributors https://github.com/torproject/tor/graphs/contributors

specialist 10y ago

From the blog post: "The investigation also identified two additional people as having engaged in inappropriate conduct, and they are no longer involved with the Tor Project." Damn. This effort feels like the kind of deep introspection that every organization should undertake. Every org has their bad apples. But as of yet, there's no norms for addressing them. "code of conduct", etc Thank you. This is excellent news. These types of innovations in governance will become the norm. Thank you for leading the way.