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Disclosure: At the last minute I escaped a terrorist attack in Israel when I purchased a candy bar at a local store. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Jerusa

Disclosure: At the last minute I escaped a terrorist attack in Israel when I purchased a candy bar at a local store. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Jerusalem_vehicular_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Jerusalem_vehicular_attac...) Dr. Paul Ekman is a worthy researcher, who studied facial expressions and has worked with the Dali Lama. The TV series, Lie to Me (now on Netflix) is wonderful and fun. I was at Columbia University when the World Trade Center was struck. I used to work in a building across the street from the WTC. I could see the smoke down Broadway (Ave) from the WTC. Now there is a memorial (and an Apple Store will soon be on the site). So, if torture would have prevented 9/11 should we have done the torture or should we have let 9/11 happen? To me it is simple. Every single life is important. Ekman argues that while torture may prevent some terrorism it is not perfect. But, no intervention is perfect. Because surgery is not 100% in saving a life from a traffic accident, does that mean we don't do the surgery? Instead of writing a blog post about torturing to save lives from terrorism, Dr. Ekman should visit with loved ones of victims of 9/11, and of terrorist attacks in Israel, France, ..... After speaking with 9/11 loved ones of victims, he could visit the loved ones of about a dozen teenage girls that were killed waiting in line to go dancing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphinarium_discotheque_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphinarium_discotheque_massa... Empathy is really important. I'm surprised at this blog post.

casiotone 10y ago
> To me it is simple. Every single life is important. Except, apparently, the life of your torture victim. This comment is a disgraceful defence of barbaric practices.
- davidf18 10y ago
  So it's barbaric to torture a terrorist or someone who can help you stop one? Don't think so. Why don't you talk with loved ones of victims of 9/11? Empathy his key.
  - detaro 10y ago
    How do you make sure that you only torture people who will give you useful information? If you don't have to make sure, how many people are you allowed to torture "by mistake"?
    - davidf18 10y ago
      Why don't you speak with some handicapped victims of terror of the parents of children killed by terrorists or the loved ones of victims of 9/11. Make it real. Think of these people. I for one, know people who have lost loved ones from terrorists besides just missing out on it myself.
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        Why are they more deserving of empathy, compassion and humanity than Mohamed Bashmilah? http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/13/us/politics/amid-details-on-torture-data-on-26-held-in-error-.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/13/us/politics/amid-details-o... Take careful note, my point is that they are equally deserving of those things.
  - casiotone 10y ago
    > So it's barbaric to torture a terrorist or someone who can help you stop one? Yes, it's barbaric to torture anybody for any reason. Empathy is key. Your abuse of traumatic events to support the horrific crime of torture is shameful. You are no better than those you claim moral superiority over.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> So, if torture would have prevented 9/11 should we have done the torture or should we have let 9/11 happen? The problem with these kind of "if torture would prevent..." scenarios is that there is generally no way of every being in a situation where you know that torture would prevent the harm that is hypothesized to justify it. (And, I've yet to see anything indicating that, even in the case where you somehow know that there is an imminent harm and know that a particular person has information that would allow you to prevent it, that there is any basis on which one could ever reasonably conclude that torture would be the most effective method of extracting accurate information.) Even leaving aside the moral argument that torture is never acceptable whatever the benefits, none of the torture that has ever been done, no concrete policy allowing torture that has ever been adopted or proposed, and no approach to torture that is even conceivable given the information that appears to be available would ever be able to limit torture to situations where the kind of "if torture would prevent <specified class of harms>" scenarios that are frequently cited to justify it.
- davidf18 10y ago
  >> So, if torture would have prevented 9/11 should we have done the torture or should we have let 9/11 happen? > The problem with these kind of "if torture would prevent..." scenarios is that there is generally no way of every being in a situation where you know that torture would prevent the harm that is hypothesized to justify it. Just as in my example of a surgical intervention after a traffic accident, this is no guarantee of 100% success. The question to ask is not will every time be successful, but statistically will it be successful. Just because you aren't 100% certain that torture would prevent a 9/11, or any other terrorist attack doesn't mean one shouldn't try the intervention. Also, the fewer successful attacks, the less likely terrorists will keep attempting them, so it has a form of community effect when you prevent any victim from terror. Empathy is key. Talk with victims of terror who have survived, but are injured. Speak with loved ones of terror victims. Get to know them and their feelings. The problem with those who criticize interventions that can save lives from terrorists, is there lack of empathy for the victims that survive and the loved ones of those who don't. The child without the parent. The parent of the child. For example, an American 13-year-old girl was recently killed by a terrorist in Israel. If torture could have saved her, then it should have been used. Palestinian Man Stabs and Kills 13-year-old Israeli Girl Asleep in Her West Bank Home http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.728013 http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.728013

casiotone 10y ago

> To me it is simple. Every single life is important. Except, apparently, the life of your torture victim. This comment is a disgraceful defence of barbaric practices.

davidf18 10y ago
So it's barbaric to torture a terrorist or someone who can help you stop one? Don't think so. Why don't you talk with loved ones of victims of 9/11? Empathy his key.
- detaro 10y ago
  How do you make sure that you only torture people who will give you useful information? If you don't have to make sure, how many people are you allowed to torture "by mistake"?
  - davidf18 10y ago
    Why don't you speak with some handicapped victims of terror of the parents of children killed by terrorists or the loved ones of victims of 9/11. Make it real. Think of these people. I for one, know people who have lost loved ones from terrorists besides just missing out on it myself.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      Why are they more deserving of empathy, compassion and humanity than Mohamed Bashmilah? http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/13/us/politics/amid-details-on-torture-data-on-26-held-in-error-.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/13/us/politics/amid-details-o... Take careful note, my point is that they are equally deserving of those things.
- casiotone 10y ago
  > So it's barbaric to torture a terrorist or someone who can help you stop one? Yes, it's barbaric to torture anybody for any reason. Empathy is key. Your abuse of traumatic events to support the horrific crime of torture is shameful. You are no better than those you claim moral superiority over.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> So, if torture would have prevented 9/11 should we have done the torture or should we have let 9/11 happen? The problem with these kind of "if torture would prevent..." scenarios is that there is generally no way of every being in a situation where you know that torture would prevent the harm that is hypothesized to justify it. (And, I've yet to see anything indicating that, even in the case where you somehow know that there is an imminent harm and know that a particular person has information that would allow you to prevent it, that there is any basis on which one could ever reasonably conclude that torture would be the most effective method of extracting accurate information.) Even leaving aside the moral argument that torture is never acceptable whatever the benefits, none of the torture that has ever been done, no concrete policy allowing torture that has ever been adopted or proposed, and no approach to torture that is even conceivable given the information that appears to be available would ever be able to limit torture to situations where the kind of "if torture would prevent <specified class of harms>" scenarios that are frequently cited to justify it.

davidf18 10y ago
>> So, if torture would have prevented 9/11 should we have done the torture or should we have let 9/11 happen? > The problem with these kind of "if torture would prevent..." scenarios is that there is generally no way of every being in a situation where you know that torture would prevent the harm that is hypothesized to justify it. Just as in my example of a surgical intervention after a traffic accident, this is no guarantee of 100% success. The question to ask is not will every time be successful, but statistically will it be successful. Just because you aren't 100% certain that torture would prevent a 9/11, or any other terrorist attack doesn't mean one shouldn't try the intervention. Also, the fewer successful attacks, the less likely terrorists will keep attempting them, so it has a form of community effect when you prevent any victim from terror. Empathy is key. Talk with victims of terror who have survived, but are injured. Speak with loved ones of terror victims. Get to know them and their feelings. The problem with those who criticize interventions that can save lives from terrorists, is there lack of empathy for the victims that survive and the loved ones of those who don't. The child without the parent. The parent of the child. For example, an American 13-year-old girl was recently killed by a terrorist in Israel. If torture could have saved her, then it should have been used. Palestinian Man Stabs and Kills 13-year-old Israeli Girl Asleep in Her West Bank Home http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.728013 http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.728013