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If I said that apples were the cause of global warming and that to avoid catastrophe you had to avoid eating apples it wouldn't worry you nearly as much, would

If I said that apples were the cause of global warming and that to avoid catastrophe you had to avoid eating apples it wouldn't worry you nearly as much, would it? I mean apples are delicious, but they aren't worth the misery that extreme weather will inflict on us. There are also a lot of people who depend on apple production to make a living. We would have to find some way for them to transition to something else for the benefit of everyone. Everybody who enjoys apples today would suffer a bit, but most people could deal with the consequences pretty easily. The problem is that carbon releasing, cheap energy is more delicious than apples. It is worth a lot more than apples and the people who control that energy are a lot more powerful than apple growers. But the solution is the same. How would you convince people to stop eating apples? You could protest against the eating of apples. You could lobby for apple taxes. You could do many, many things, but to be honest I don't think you would be very successful. If it were me, I think I would work very hard to eliminate apples from my life (at least as much as I could). I would work very hard to learn how to be happy without apples (or at least with a tiny amount of apples). Having learned how to be happy without apples, I would show my neighbours and friends how they can be happy without apples. Because the thing is, you require a cultural change to get everyone going the same direction. And they won't do it unless they think it's going to be OK. Right now all they hear is death and destruction on one side, or a life of freezing poverty on the other side. Most of them are happy to believe the apple salesmen who tell them that the concept that apples change the climate is preposterous.

HerpDerpLerp 10y ago
A confounding factor is that there is apples in a lot of things you may not think of, and somethings use apples in their production... even if you never see the apples yourself.
- madaxe_again 10y ago
  And even some products which supposedly provide free apples are made with apples, and require themselves to be used beyond their serviceable lifetime to provide more apples than went into making them. In short, we either need a radical new source of apples, or we need to find a way to use far fewer apples.
  - pif 10y ago
    > we either need a radical new source of apples, or we need to find a way to use far fewer apples. I'm afraid that in no way we can have the second without the first one. People switched to fossil fuels because life was way too much easier with them, and no climate change can convince us to go back unless we find another big source of cheap energy or, simply, we exhaust the oil fields.
    - madaxe_again 10y ago
      We basically need portable fusion, or micro-hydrogen turbines powered by hydrogen formed by electrolysis of seawater from purely renewable sources. It's quite an ask, given that, as you say, fossil is cheap and easy - although not as cheap as it used to be to get at - but artificially cheap on the market in a (in my view) desperate lunge to stave off the inevitable fall, as their real production costs catch up with them. There's a reason they're investing increasingly in "alternative" energy sources, and moving branding towards energy from fossil fuels. The market will act, but I fear too late.
  - pilom 10y ago
    Pulling away from the metaphor for a moment, I was under the impression that with today's technology (not the panels of 20 years ago), solar panels take about 4 years to produce as much power as it took to manufacture them and then service lives of 25 years minimum. I'm honestly curious, do you have a source?
    - madaxe_again 10y ago
      Most of today's renewable technologies have decent energy buy-back times - this is in part due to improvements in materials, and in part due to manufacturing infrastructure energy investment being paid off - and of course the increasing use of renewable energy for the manufacture of renewable energy production goods. That all said, a lot of what is currently installed will probably never see energy buy-back. Rather, we have to look upon a lot of existing renewable investment as just that - investment - for this has paved the way for actually energy positive renewable energy technology, which we now have, and seem poised to squander.
pif 10y ago
I up-voted you because I really appreciated the concept and the form, but... > I would work very hard to learn how to be happy without apples (or at least with a tiny amount of apples). The problem is: with no apples, you can't be as happy as with apples. At least, not until the others are enjoying their apples and share the negative sides with you. It's the usual tragedy of the common, when anybody could be happier if (and only if) everybody ate less apples.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  Actually, I can. Or perhaps not with no apples. But, I certainly use less apples... er energy... than I used to. By a lot, and I'm much happier. Warning, past this point you may think I'm a lunatic. I really am trying to see what works and what doesn't work. I've been really surprised at how much stuff I really don't want once I've gotten rid of it. I don't have a car. I hang my clothes on a line (I even went a year washing my clothes by hand, but my wife drew the line there ;-) ). I wash my dishes by hand. I have a 200W heater that I use for 4 hours a night in the winter (1 degree C). I have a small electric fan that I use for a similar time in the summer (35 degree C). I experience weather* (wow). I have LCD panel lights (which are incredibly awesome). My wife and I average no more than 1.5 kWh a day. Even though we pay about 40 cents per kWh, I can't remember when our bill exceeded the minimum charge (imposed by stupid-power-company-fees). I could go on and on. And the thing is, I really am happier as a result of what I'm doing. Can everybody be as happy as me with as little as me? I'm not sure. Maybe somebody can do better. I hope so. But I keep seeing what I can do and showing it to others to see what they think. I think it's the only way. * I use about $20 a year in charcoal in a hibachi in really cold weather. I work from home and don't heat the home. I try to heat me. However, below 5 degrees C is pretty hard on the health, so I really don't advise it. Above that is surprisingly doable. 10 degrees C is even pleasant.
  - zafka 10y ago
    I really appreciate what you are doing. Did you have to coax your wife along this path, or was she already of a similar mind?
corecoder 10y ago
The problem is that most of your neighbours and friends would see you as the hippy idealist guy who gave up apples in vain, because while you don't use apples anymore, airplanes full of apples keep flying, apples factories and farms keep producing and consuming apples, and apples provider ads keep showing how cheap apples are. There's a sense of helplessness (learned helplessness, some would say), due to the perception that your efforts are pointless, as you are but a drop in the ocean.
- pmyjavec 10y ago
  The word hippy and the negative connotations associated with it are fascinating to me, it's amazing how western societies have created a negative connotation to describe a person who is probably more caring, conscious and alternate thinking than your average citizen. Basically a hippy is someone guilty of 'thought crime'. It's an amazing device.
  - JWLong 10y ago
    You're more than welcome to continue to be fascinated... and ineffective. Sometimes you need to come down from your moral highground to meet the enemy.
    - pmyjavec 10y ago
      Thanks for validating my point :)
  - r_smart 10y ago
    I used to hold an opinion of hippies similar to yours. Then 1. I watched the documentary on Woodstock and saw the disaster they made out of that place and 2. Spent a lot of time around my cousin and her friends when she was in art school. My conclusion was that hippies aren't any better or worse than other people. They suffer the same flaws as everyone else. The downside is that they seem to put forward this air of high-mindedness that rings pretty false to me. And they have worse hygiene :)
guard-of-terra 10y ago
"misery that extreme weather will inflict on us" This misery will be very unevenly distributed. Most people will trade one weather for another. Some will definitely benefit. A good portion will probably see their current place uninhabitable.
CWuestefeld 10y ago
How would you convince people to stop eating apples? One step in the right direction would be to stop (literally!) fighting to make apples as inexpensive as possible. We could allow the market for apples reflect the true costs of their discovery, harvesting, processing, and transport, with no subsidies. The price would likely be significantly higher, and many people would curtail their apple consumption of their own accord.

HerpDerpLerp 10y ago

A confounding factor is that there is apples in a lot of things you may not think of, and somethings use apples in their production... even if you never see the apples yourself.

madaxe_again 10y ago
And even some products which supposedly provide free apples are made with apples, and require themselves to be used beyond their serviceable lifetime to provide more apples than went into making them. In short, we either need a radical new source of apples, or we need to find a way to use far fewer apples.
- pif 10y ago
  > we either need a radical new source of apples, or we need to find a way to use far fewer apples. I'm afraid that in no way we can have the second without the first one. People switched to fossil fuels because life was way too much easier with them, and no climate change can convince us to go back unless we find another big source of cheap energy or, simply, we exhaust the oil fields.
  - madaxe_again 10y ago
    We basically need portable fusion, or micro-hydrogen turbines powered by hydrogen formed by electrolysis of seawater from purely renewable sources. It's quite an ask, given that, as you say, fossil is cheap and easy - although not as cheap as it used to be to get at - but artificially cheap on the market in a (in my view) desperate lunge to stave off the inevitable fall, as their real production costs catch up with them. There's a reason they're investing increasingly in "alternative" energy sources, and moving branding towards energy from fossil fuels. The market will act, but I fear too late.
- pilom 10y ago
  Pulling away from the metaphor for a moment, I was under the impression that with today's technology (not the panels of 20 years ago), solar panels take about 4 years to produce as much power as it took to manufacture them and then service lives of 25 years minimum. I'm honestly curious, do you have a source?
  - madaxe_again 10y ago
    Most of today's renewable technologies have decent energy buy-back times - this is in part due to improvements in materials, and in part due to manufacturing infrastructure energy investment being paid off - and of course the increasing use of renewable energy for the manufacture of renewable energy production goods. That all said, a lot of what is currently installed will probably never see energy buy-back. Rather, we have to look upon a lot of existing renewable investment as just that - investment - for this has paved the way for actually energy positive renewable energy technology, which we now have, and seem poised to squander.

pif 10y ago

I up-voted you because I really appreciated the concept and the form, but... > I would work very hard to learn how to be happy without apples (or at least with a tiny amount of apples). The problem is: with no apples, you can't be as happy as with apples. At least, not until the others are enjoying their apples and share the negative sides with you. It's the usual tragedy of the common, when anybody could be happier if (and only if) everybody ate less apples.

mikekchar 10y ago
Actually, I can. Or perhaps not with no apples. But, I certainly use less apples... er energy... than I used to. By a lot, and I'm much happier. Warning, past this point you may think I'm a lunatic. I really am trying to see what works and what doesn't work. I've been really surprised at how much stuff I really don't want once I've gotten rid of it. I don't have a car. I hang my clothes on a line (I even went a year washing my clothes by hand, but my wife drew the line there ;-) ). I wash my dishes by hand. I have a 200W heater that I use for 4 hours a night in the winter (1 degree C). I have a small electric fan that I use for a similar time in the summer (35 degree C). I experience weather* (wow). I have LCD panel lights (which are incredibly awesome). My wife and I average no more than 1.5 kWh a day. Even though we pay about 40 cents per kWh, I can't remember when our bill exceeded the minimum charge (imposed by stupid-power-company-fees). I could go on and on. And the thing is, I really am happier as a result of what I'm doing. Can everybody be as happy as me with as little as me? I'm not sure. Maybe somebody can do better. I hope so. But I keep seeing what I can do and showing it to others to see what they think. I think it's the only way. * I use about $20 a year in charcoal in a hibachi in really cold weather. I work from home and don't heat the home. I try to heat me. However, below 5 degrees C is pretty hard on the health, so I really don't advise it. Above that is surprisingly doable. 10 degrees C is even pleasant.
- zafka 10y ago
  I really appreciate what you are doing. Did you have to coax your wife along this path, or was she already of a similar mind?

corecoder 10y ago

The problem is that most of your neighbours and friends would see you as the hippy idealist guy who gave up apples in vain, because while you don't use apples anymore, airplanes full of apples keep flying, apples factories and farms keep producing and consuming apples, and apples provider ads keep showing how cheap apples are. There's a sense of helplessness (learned helplessness, some would say), due to the perception that your efforts are pointless, as you are but a drop in the ocean.

pmyjavec 10y ago
The word hippy and the negative connotations associated with it are fascinating to me, it's amazing how western societies have created a negative connotation to describe a person who is probably more caring, conscious and alternate thinking than your average citizen. Basically a hippy is someone guilty of 'thought crime'. It's an amazing device.
- JWLong 10y ago
  You're more than welcome to continue to be fascinated... and ineffective. Sometimes you need to come down from your moral highground to meet the enemy.
  - pmyjavec 10y ago
    Thanks for validating my point :)
- r_smart 10y ago
  I used to hold an opinion of hippies similar to yours. Then 1. I watched the documentary on Woodstock and saw the disaster they made out of that place and 2. Spent a lot of time around my cousin and her friends when she was in art school. My conclusion was that hippies aren't any better or worse than other people. They suffer the same flaws as everyone else. The downside is that they seem to put forward this air of high-mindedness that rings pretty false to me. And they have worse hygiene :)

guard-of-terra 10y ago

"misery that extreme weather will inflict on us" This misery will be very unevenly distributed. Most people will trade one weather for another. Some will definitely benefit. A good portion will probably see their current place uninhabitable.

CWuestefeld 10y ago

How would you convince people to stop eating apples? One step in the right direction would be to stop (literally!) fighting to make apples as inexpensive as possible. We could allow the market for apples reflect the true costs of their discovery, harvesting, processing, and transport, with no subsidies. The price would likely be significantly higher, and many people would curtail their apple consumption of their own accord.