7 ms·

I cannot trust Lenovo being competent at what they do after superfish, I wonder how can any of the readers of hacker news still think of buying from them... (th

by scotu 10y ago

I cannot trust Lenovo being competent at what they do after superfish, I wonder how can any of the readers of hacker news still think of buying from them... (this doesn't mean that competitors are competent or anything, but being caught like they were undermines my basic trust threshold)

MichaelGG 10y ago
Unfortunately, nothing comes close to ThinkPads. I dislike Lenovo a lot and would ditch them at first chance. No vendor wants to be that chance though. (Proper keyboard, 3-physical-button pad/point, not too hot, etc.) I'm not too concerned about Superfish - that was only the consumer junk, right? The BIOS-Windows-auto-install stuff was more concerning. But hey, little choices. Lenovo is certainly incompetent - look at the X240/T440 with the terrible pad design they backtracked on (obvious). Or the Carbon keyboards they ended up ditching.
- smhg 10y ago
  Don't forget the Ctrl - Fn key swap. On some Lenovo models they are the same size (and can be swapped), but not on the Carbon X1.
  - FT_intern 10y ago
    I assume this was implemented to improve usability for people with short fingers. As someone with tiny fingers, I would rather have a huge Ctrl key and a tiny fn key
- dorfsmay 10y ago
  I'm in the same boat. Additionally there is a huge immunity of people running Linux on the thinkpads which make it easier to pick the right components when buying, and sovle and find work around when you do hit a problem.
  - JBiserkov 10y ago
    I know this is probably auto-correct, but find it hilarious that you misspelled 'community' as 'immunity' :-)
- turnip1979 10y ago
  What thinkpad would u get today? I looked into the T460 but (a) they seem to have many variants within the same model and (b) I saw too many negative reviews online.
  - ThePhysicist 10y ago
    The T460p is a very good deal if you want something light, powerful and extensible for a very good price. You can get a version with a quad-core i7, dedicated Nvidia graphics card and 3k display for about 1400 USD. Combined with a three-year guarantee it's a very good deal I'd say, and much better than what most other manufacturers (including Dell and Apple) offer for this price. I also own an X1 Carbon, which is a great laptop but a little underpowered for my needs (and hard/impossible to upgrade).
    - MichaelGG 10y ago
      How's the heat on the T460p? Can you use it for light work without the keyboard heating up at all?
      - ThePhysicist 10y ago
        it heats up a bit under heavy load, but not more than my earlier Thinkpads. The X1 Carbon is much cooler but also less powerful ;)
  - MichaelGG 10y ago
    The T440p was bulky, hot - total shit. The graphics were super weak, and the screen was utter junk. Dunno if the newer ones are considerably better; they probably fixed a lot. The X250 is pretty good, though you get a keyboard at random and will need to replace the part (always get next business day warranty) if you get one of the junk ones. Otherwise it's a nice laptop - I've not seen anything I like more (though it could be better, of course; a 3:2 screen for starters). I've used a T450s, and the keyboard feels fantastic on it. At 3K res it'd probably real nice. Unless you need a specific CPU/GPU, stick with the X260/T460s (s for slim). Perhaps compare reviews to the X250/T450s to see if it got worse? Assuming you don't need high-end power (like quad core), it's more of a preference if you want a small 12" or a larger screen. I dock my X250 and it seems fine, even driving a higher-pixel external monitor. I'd go for the X260, but if software support was better for hiDPI I might consider the T450s. (If they had centred keyboards without numpad, maybe even a 15" model.) Edit: FWIW when using it in laptop mode, I run CPU throttled to 50% or less to keep it cool. I have the cheaper i5-5200U option and it's fine for emacs/VS/browsing. At full power it can play Dolphin emulator Smash Brothers Brawl and Melee at full speed, but just barely.
- pmontra 10y ago
  > Proper keyboard, 3-physical-button pad/point, not too hot HP's ZBooks? You can even replace almost any component inside. I got the first generation model (15") and it's very good. Sure, it's not light and slim.
fapjacks 10y ago
That's easy: Who cares what Lenovo installs on their hardware? Whatever is on there is coming off as soon as I get it. And their hardware is excellent for the price.
- zaroth 10y ago
  I think the thing with Lenovo is, their hardware is sometimes excellent for the price. It's like they are Intel with a tick-tock cadence except the ticks are all complete duds. Just make sure to wait for a new model to accumulate at least 6 months of solid reviews before pulling the trigger. I've been getting ThinkPads on corporate refresh cycles for 15 years and after they sold to Lenovo, I never know if a new machine will turn out to be a flaky piece of junk or totally solid and well built. Seems like it's always one or the other.
  - fapjacks 10y ago
    Yeah, you are totally right.
- paulmd 10y ago
  You can't necessarily remove it. For example, there's a mechanism called the Windows Binary Platform Table that automatically copies an EXE from the UEFI image and executes it with kernel-level privileges on each boot. It's intended to be used to deliver drivers or anti-theft software after a clean install, but Lenovo was using it to deliver malware, and there's nothing you can do about it unless you have a signed image without the malware included. http://thenextweb.com/insider/2015/08/12/lenovo-used-a-hidden-windows-feature-to-ensure-its-software-could-not-be-deleted/ http://thenextweb.com/insider/2015/08/12/lenovo-used-a-hidde...
  - josteink 10y ago
    But the second this news broke, Lenovo backed our immediately and issued a firmware update removing the bloatware. At least this issue should be solved.
josteink 10y ago
> I cannot trust Lenovo being competent at what they do after superfish, I wonder how can any of the readers of hacker news still think of buying from them. It was certainly a giant blunder, but like all of these issues they are Windows only, and usually only if you use the factory OS image. Like most(?) of the HN crowd not using Apple products, I run Linux, so that kind of stuff doesn't affect me at all. I assume the remaining ones reinstall using their own installation-media too? It doesn't excuse Lenovo's behaviour and certainly can make you question their judgement, but all in all, I'm one of those who are putting less weight on this issue than others may do. What matters most to me, are the practical aspects: what can this product do for me? And Carbon X1 Thinkpads are among the best lightweight laptops out there.
- beagle3 10y ago
  No, it's not only if you use the factory OS image: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/12/lenovo_firmware_nasty/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/12/lenovo_firmware_nast... - it is, indeed, only if you use Windows for now. But there was a time where pressing the "restore" key on the IdeaPad (yes, there was one, that starts a windows restore) would bork a Linux install. ThinkPad hardware is OK, but it's very hard to trust Lenovo with anything these days. A good summary I found while looking for the above link is http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/now-three-pre-installed-malwares-lenovo-laptops/ http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/now-three-pre-installed-malware...
- embik 10y ago
  > It was certainly a giant blunder, but like all of these issues they are Windows only, and usually only if you use the factory OS image. Don't forget that your hardware vendor is also responsible for firmware. Not saying that Lenovo is special in any way here, but delivering terrible software on the factory OS image might have implications for software quality in general.
  - TD-Linux 10y ago
    Lenovo actually has a moderately good track record here - they have shipped firmware updates that fixed Linux-only issues.
ekianjo 10y ago
> I cannot trust Lenovo being competent at what they do after superfish That was not on the business line. I.e. it did not impact thinkpads, which is what people usually buy on HN anyway.
- freehunter 10y ago
  It still speaks to the leadership culture at the organization. At some point, someone okayed Superfish. That's not alright.

by scotu 10y ago

MichaelGG 10y ago

Unfortunately, nothing comes close to ThinkPads. I dislike Lenovo a lot and would ditch them at first chance. No vendor wants to be that chance though. (Proper keyboard, 3-physical-button pad/point, not too hot, etc.) I'm not too concerned about Superfish - that was only the consumer junk, right? The BIOS-Windows-auto-install stuff was more concerning. But hey, little choices. Lenovo is certainly incompetent - look at the X240/T440 with the terrible pad design they backtracked on (obvious). Or the Carbon keyboards they ended up ditching.

smhg 10y ago
Don't forget the Ctrl - Fn key swap. On some Lenovo models they are the same size (and can be swapped), but not on the Carbon X1.
- FT_intern 10y ago
  I assume this was implemented to improve usability for people with short fingers. As someone with tiny fingers, I would rather have a huge Ctrl key and a tiny fn key
dorfsmay 10y ago
I'm in the same boat. Additionally there is a huge immunity of people running Linux on the thinkpads which make it easier to pick the right components when buying, and sovle and find work around when you do hit a problem.
- JBiserkov 10y ago
  I know this is probably auto-correct, but find it hilarious that you misspelled 'community' as 'immunity' :-)
turnip1979 10y ago
What thinkpad would u get today? I looked into the T460 but (a) they seem to have many variants within the same model and (b) I saw too many negative reviews online.
- ThePhysicist 10y ago
  The T460p is a very good deal if you want something light, powerful and extensible for a very good price. You can get a version with a quad-core i7, dedicated Nvidia graphics card and 3k display for about 1400 USD. Combined with a three-year guarantee it's a very good deal I'd say, and much better than what most other manufacturers (including Dell and Apple) offer for this price. I also own an X1 Carbon, which is a great laptop but a little underpowered for my needs (and hard/impossible to upgrade).
  - MichaelGG 10y ago
    How's the heat on the T460p? Can you use it for light work without the keyboard heating up at all?
    - ThePhysicist 10y ago
      it heats up a bit under heavy load, but not more than my earlier Thinkpads. The X1 Carbon is much cooler but also less powerful ;)
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  The T440p was bulky, hot - total shit. The graphics were super weak, and the screen was utter junk. Dunno if the newer ones are considerably better; they probably fixed a lot. The X250 is pretty good, though you get a keyboard at random and will need to replace the part (always get next business day warranty) if you get one of the junk ones. Otherwise it's a nice laptop - I've not seen anything I like more (though it could be better, of course; a 3:2 screen for starters). I've used a T450s, and the keyboard feels fantastic on it. At 3K res it'd probably real nice. Unless you need a specific CPU/GPU, stick with the X260/T460s (s for slim). Perhaps compare reviews to the X250/T450s to see if it got worse? Assuming you don't need high-end power (like quad core), it's more of a preference if you want a small 12" or a larger screen. I dock my X250 and it seems fine, even driving a higher-pixel external monitor. I'd go for the X260, but if software support was better for hiDPI I might consider the T450s. (If they had centred keyboards without numpad, maybe even a 15" model.) Edit: FWIW when using it in laptop mode, I run CPU throttled to 50% or less to keep it cool. I have the cheaper i5-5200U option and it's fine for emacs/VS/browsing. At full power it can play Dolphin emulator Smash Brothers Brawl and Melee at full speed, but just barely.
pmontra 10y ago
> Proper keyboard, 3-physical-button pad/point, not too hot HP's ZBooks? You can even replace almost any component inside. I got the first generation model (15") and it's very good. Sure, it's not light and slim.

fapjacks 10y ago

That's easy: Who cares what Lenovo installs on their hardware? Whatever is on there is coming off as soon as I get it. And their hardware is excellent for the price.

zaroth 10y ago
I think the thing with Lenovo is, their hardware is sometimes excellent for the price. It's like they are Intel with a tick-tock cadence except the ticks are all complete duds. Just make sure to wait for a new model to accumulate at least 6 months of solid reviews before pulling the trigger. I've been getting ThinkPads on corporate refresh cycles for 15 years and after they sold to Lenovo, I never know if a new machine will turn out to be a flaky piece of junk or totally solid and well built. Seems like it's always one or the other.
- fapjacks 10y ago
  Yeah, you are totally right.
paulmd 10y ago
You can't necessarily remove it. For example, there's a mechanism called the Windows Binary Platform Table that automatically copies an EXE from the UEFI image and executes it with kernel-level privileges on each boot. It's intended to be used to deliver drivers or anti-theft software after a clean install, but Lenovo was using it to deliver malware, and there's nothing you can do about it unless you have a signed image without the malware included. http://thenextweb.com/insider/2015/08/12/lenovo-used-a-hidden-windows-feature-to-ensure-its-software-could-not-be-deleted/ http://thenextweb.com/insider/2015/08/12/lenovo-used-a-hidde...
- josteink 10y ago
  But the second this news broke, Lenovo backed our immediately and issued a firmware update removing the bloatware. At least this issue should be solved.

josteink 10y ago

> I cannot trust Lenovo being competent at what they do after superfish, I wonder how can any of the readers of hacker news still think of buying from them. It was certainly a giant blunder, but like all of these issues they are Windows only, and usually only if you use the factory OS image. Like most(?) of the HN crowd not using Apple products, I run Linux, so that kind of stuff doesn't affect me at all. I assume the remaining ones reinstall using their own installation-media too? It doesn't excuse Lenovo's behaviour and certainly can make you question their judgement, but all in all, I'm one of those who are putting less weight on this issue than others may do. What matters most to me, are the practical aspects: what can this product do for me? And Carbon X1 Thinkpads are among the best lightweight laptops out there.

beagle3 10y ago
No, it's not only if you use the factory OS image: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/12/lenovo_firmware_nasty/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/12/lenovo_firmware_nast... - it is, indeed, only if you use Windows for now. But there was a time where pressing the "restore" key on the IdeaPad (yes, there was one, that starts a windows restore) would bork a Linux install. ThinkPad hardware is OK, but it's very hard to trust Lenovo with anything these days. A good summary I found while looking for the above link is http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/now-three-pre-installed-malwares-lenovo-laptops/ http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/now-three-pre-installed-malware...
embik 10y ago
> It was certainly a giant blunder, but like all of these issues they are Windows only, and usually only if you use the factory OS image. Don't forget that your hardware vendor is also responsible for firmware. Not saying that Lenovo is special in any way here, but delivering terrible software on the factory OS image might have implications for software quality in general.
- TD-Linux 10y ago
  Lenovo actually has a moderately good track record here - they have shipped firmware updates that fixed Linux-only issues.

ekianjo 10y ago

> I cannot trust Lenovo being competent at what they do after superfish That was not on the business line. I.e. it did not impact thinkpads, which is what people usually buy on HN anyway.

freehunter 10y ago
It still speaks to the leadership culture at the organization. At some point, someone okayed Superfish. That's not alright.