8 ms·

How Exhaustion Became a Status Symbol

114 points by Petiver 10y ago

deedubaya 10y ago
Janis Buck has been kind enough to share his experiences with burnout is shedding light on a rarely talked about problem. I applaud him and encourage every hard working human to heed his advice. https://m.signalvnoise.com/avoiding-the-trap-8df59e718f3e#.fwlbhkvy0 https://m.signalvnoise.com/avoiding-the-trap-8df59e718f3e#.f...
- moron4hire 10y ago
  It's a problem that you think it's a rarely talked-about problem. You can't go two weeks on HN without a post from a founder or startup employee "breaking the silence" on their burnout, getting up-voted to the front page and getting hundreds of "me too" replies. Why do we continue to think burnout and depression are unique problems? Why do we keep letting it happen to ourselves? We style ourselves as so smart, yet we continue to make the same mistakes, over and over again, and act like it's a new problem each time.
  - swsieber 10y ago
    I think though we are moving in the opposite direction, or at least trying to - there was an Ask HN about what prevents companies for hiring programmers to work shorter hours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12161693 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12161693
  - enraged_camel 10y ago
    >>Why do we continue to think burnout and depression are unique problems? Why do we keep letting it happen to ourselves? The answer is very simple: productivity + youthful optimism. The fact of the matter is that productivity — that feeling of "getting shit done" — feels good. Being smart doesn't help. On the contrary, it makes things worse, because smart people find clever ways to multiply their productivity, and their sense of pride for doing so contributes to the pleasure and satisfaction they get from their work. Now combine this with the fact that software engineers tend to be young. Young people can endure longer work hours — they tend to not have families and kids to worry about and their bodies can take more punishment. They also tend to be idealists and really optimistic about their chances of actually making a difference in the world. These two factors can cause them to justify insane work hours, even if they are aware of the dangers of burnout and depression.
    - zubat 10y ago
      I think the problem is even a little more subtle. The thing a programmer should ultimately aim for is to automate themselves out. But there are two strong disincentives to doing so. One is economic - they don't participate as a stakeholder equally unless they're cofounders. The other is a disincentive to improve. By this I mean that becoming a better programmer means taking on deeper challenges and solving increasingly obscure concerns and constantly reaching a point where no IRC channel nor Stack Overflow thread can help you. This takes you out of flow. It's not fun to work right up at the limit of your ability, you have no hope of bullshitting through that level of difficulty in crunch mode, and developing those skills alienates other programmers who are not burdened by the demons you have fought. Plus the majority of software businesses have arranged themselves around making some use of fresh, mediocre coding talent, so going too deep and too specialized can make you less hireable!. So it works out that prevention with good engineering can grow discouraged in favor of all nighters.
      - dsfyu404ed 10y ago
        >It's not fun to work right up at the limit of your ability, you have no hope of bullshitting through that level of difficulty This isn't just for programmers. Pretty much any occupation where you're routinely in a situation where you are responsible for making decisions based on incomplete information or with a large element of chance/luck affecting the outcome will wear you down fairly quickly. President, pope, EMT, infantryman in foxhole, cartel kingpin (and other criminals who make enough money to be "noticed" by authorities) etc., to name a few.
      - internaut 10y ago
        > he thing a programmer should ultimately aim for is to automate themselves out. This is something I ferociously agree and disagree on at the same time. 1. Yes automating labour inputs is the key to growth. Always has been. That is the point in your favour. 2. But paradoxically once you have automated your labour input you grok no further efficiency gains. Why would you when you've reached '100%' efficiency? This is a bit counterintuitive. Here is a toy example; suppose I manufacture hammers at HammerCo Corp. One day I manage to automate all labour relating to the manufacture of hammers. I am rich and successful as competitors die off. Then suddenly I myself go bankrupt because a new competitor introduces hydraulic or pneumatic hammers onto the marketplace in which I had my niche. I have no expertise to counter the move and cannot defend against it. You don't comprehend you were in a local maxima. When a worker closely observes a technological process he or she is involved in they might notice details (or going the other way, general rules) that would not be noticed by causal observers. This leads to creative insight that coupled with capital can allow the invention of new designs and ultimately technologies. I guess the same thing is true of programming. If you abstract too much (something we've been doing for some time now with frameworks/libraries etc) you lose the thread. I'm sure somebody else has thought of this before and given it a name. > Plus the majority of software businesses have arranged themselves around making some use of fresh, mediocre coding talent, so going too deep and too specialized can make you less hireable!. So many people get institutionalized into mediocrity. If they don't get you at school, they'll get you at work. Very few people manage to escape those traps.
  - bigchewy 10y ago
    There's a great book catering to people just like who you described (me included) - "If you're so smart, why aren't you happy?" I'm part way through it and it's been helpful. https://www.amazon.com/Youre-Smart-Why-Arent-Happy/dp/B01DYFUVRO https://www.amazon.com/Youre-Smart-Why-Arent-Happy/dp/B01DYF...
mc32 10y ago
I was hoping they would explore the karooshi phenomenon and how that came about and how it affects worker expectations.
xlayn 10y ago
Sometimes I suspect if this is not planned by media and corporations to get more from their employees.... I mean how can you defend the point of burnout and depression as a status symbol? I read here that on Facebook if you work after 5pm you have to do it hidden away from others.. because it means something is not ok, either the estimation, you are not communicating problems or VP/board/president/whoever want to exploit you.
- CardenB 10y ago
  With the amount of people who come in at noon I highly doubt that is the case.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- majewsky 10y ago
  > I mean how can you defend the point of burnout and depression as a status symbol? I've always explained it away with the majority's staggering ignorance of mental health. Hanlon's razor calling.
m-i-l 10y ago
Exhaustion might have become a status symbol for workers, but according to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11821629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11821629 (http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jun/01/sleep-habits-eight-hours-health-wellness-arianna-huffington http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jun/01/sleep-ha... ) getting a good night's sleep is apparently the new status symbol for the elite.
- uhtred 10y ago
  Sometimes it just seems to uncannily perfect for the ruling classes.
  - dominotw 10y ago
    I am not rich, just a regular person. I've slept as much as I've wanted all my life. Haven't used an alarm in over 10 yrs ( except when I've had to a catch a flight ect) . It has constantly puzzled my why people are sleep deprived. why?
    - rufius 10y ago
      I suspect a considerable portion can be attributed to FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out). Whether it's that new Netflix show, some snapchat celebrity, watching the news, getting stuck in a Wikipedia hole, or going out with people after working 11 hours. People will burn hours a day on these things. My wife is guilty of the Netflix and News descriptors mentioned above. I avoid the news and prefer to read but I still get stuck in the "one more chapter" hole. I am curious to know the breakdown of sleeping habits based on some simple personality distinguishers like introvert vs extrovert.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 10y ago
        I'm very introverted. I just go to bed when I'm tired.
    - 0xfeba 10y ago
      I can't stand not getting 8+ hours of sleep. So I usually do, save for when I get a new game, go out to see a movie (rarely), or some other special event. I don't understand people who constantly deprive themselves of sleep, willingly.
mrweasel 10y ago
I honestly think this is changing, it seems that people are becoming better at letting others know that they need/want to reduce their workload to avoid exhaustion or burnout. When I talk to people about wanting to work reduced hours, take a teaching job, or whatever is required to lower my stress level, I get nothing but encouragement. Working one self into the ground is starting to be seen as something stupid people do. Being able to take action before becoming exhausted is what smart and empowered people do. At least that's the impression that I get. Where I see the remaining issue it the lack of accountability for businesses. If a company push employees to exhaustion that should have hard repercussions than just gaining a reputation as a horrible place to work.
- 0xmohit 10y ago
  > When I talk to people about wanting to work reduced hours, take a teaching job, or whatever is required to lower my stress level, I get nothing but encouragement. I guess that this depends a lot on the society that you're in. While it's a good thing, it's unfortunately that this doesn't really hold in various parts of the world.
  - mrweasel 10y ago
    Absolutely. I think it helps tremendously to be a Scandinavian country.
  - googletazer 10y ago
    Also depends on how willing you are to put your foot down, in any society.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  I'd love to reduce my workload and avoid exhaustion and burnout. But the simple fact is, for me, and I would assume most workers, doing so would mean inevitably slipping out of the middle class. My 50-60 hour weeks barely let me afford to live a 2-hour commute away from work. I don't know where I'd even live if I worked/made less. I know people who aren't working to burnout levels. They're not doing great. Living paycheck to paycheck and in tiny cramped apartments. Not ready for that lifestyle, myself.
0xmohit 10y ago
Recipe for burnout is inverse of recipe for success: https://imgur.com/a/5yrMm https://imgur.com/a/5yrMm Understanding Burnout [0] by Christina Maslach [1]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kLPyV8lBbs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kLPyV8lBbs [1] http://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/christina-maslach http://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/christina-maslach

114 points by Petiver 10y ago

Janis Buck has been kind enough to share his experiences with burnout is shedding light on a rarely talked about problem. I applaud him and encourage every hard working human to heed his advice. https://m.signalvnoise.com/avoiding-the-trap-8df59e718f3e#.fwlbhkvy0 https://m.signalvnoise.com/avoiding-the-trap-8df59e718f3e#.f...

moron4hire 10y ago
It's a problem that you think it's a rarely talked-about problem. You can't go two weeks on HN without a post from a founder or startup employee "breaking the silence" on their burnout, getting up-voted to the front page and getting hundreds of "me too" replies. Why do we continue to think burnout and depression are unique problems? Why do we keep letting it happen to ourselves? We style ourselves as so smart, yet we continue to make the same mistakes, over and over again, and act like it's a new problem each time.
- swsieber 10y ago
  I think though we are moving in the opposite direction, or at least trying to - there was an Ask HN about what prevents companies for hiring programmers to work shorter hours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12161693 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12161693
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  >>Why do we continue to think burnout and depression are unique problems? Why do we keep letting it happen to ourselves? The answer is very simple: productivity + youthful optimism. The fact of the matter is that productivity — that feeling of "getting shit done" — feels good. Being smart doesn't help. On the contrary, it makes things worse, because smart people find clever ways to multiply their productivity, and their sense of pride for doing so contributes to the pleasure and satisfaction they get from their work. Now combine this with the fact that software engineers tend to be young. Young people can endure longer work hours — they tend to not have families and kids to worry about and their bodies can take more punishment. They also tend to be idealists and really optimistic about their chances of actually making a difference in the world. These two factors can cause them to justify insane work hours, even if they are aware of the dangers of burnout and depression.
  - zubat 10y ago
    I think the problem is even a little more subtle. The thing a programmer should ultimately aim for is to automate themselves out. But there are two strong disincentives to doing so. One is economic - they don't participate as a stakeholder equally unless they're cofounders. The other is a disincentive to improve. By this I mean that becoming a better programmer means taking on deeper challenges and solving increasingly obscure concerns and constantly reaching a point where no IRC channel nor Stack Overflow thread can help you. This takes you out of flow. It's not fun to work right up at the limit of your ability, you have no hope of bullshitting through that level of difficulty in crunch mode, and developing those skills alienates other programmers who are not burdened by the demons you have fought. Plus the majority of software businesses have arranged themselves around making some use of fresh, mediocre coding talent, so going too deep and too specialized can make you less hireable!. So it works out that prevention with good engineering can grow discouraged in favor of all nighters.
    - dsfyu404ed 10y ago
      >It's not fun to work right up at the limit of your ability, you have no hope of bullshitting through that level of difficulty This isn't just for programmers. Pretty much any occupation where you're routinely in a situation where you are responsible for making decisions based on incomplete information or with a large element of chance/luck affecting the outcome will wear you down fairly quickly. President, pope, EMT, infantryman in foxhole, cartel kingpin (and other criminals who make enough money to be "noticed" by authorities) etc., to name a few.
    - internaut 10y ago
      > he thing a programmer should ultimately aim for is to automate themselves out. This is something I ferociously agree and disagree on at the same time. 1. Yes automating labour inputs is the key to growth. Always has been. That is the point in your favour. 2. But paradoxically once you have automated your labour input you grok no further efficiency gains. Why would you when you've reached '100%' efficiency? This is a bit counterintuitive. Here is a toy example; suppose I manufacture hammers at HammerCo Corp. One day I manage to automate all labour relating to the manufacture of hammers. I am rich and successful as competitors die off. Then suddenly I myself go bankrupt because a new competitor introduces hydraulic or pneumatic hammers onto the marketplace in which I had my niche. I have no expertise to counter the move and cannot defend against it. You don't comprehend you were in a local maxima. When a worker closely observes a technological process he or she is involved in they might notice details (or going the other way, general rules) that would not be noticed by causal observers. This leads to creative insight that coupled with capital can allow the invention of new designs and ultimately technologies. I guess the same thing is true of programming. If you abstract too much (something we've been doing for some time now with frameworks/libraries etc) you lose the thread. I'm sure somebody else has thought of this before and given it a name. > Plus the majority of software businesses have arranged themselves around making some use of fresh, mediocre coding talent, so going too deep and too specialized can make you less hireable!. So many people get institutionalized into mediocrity. If they don't get you at school, they'll get you at work. Very few people manage to escape those traps.
- bigchewy 10y ago
  There's a great book catering to people just like who you described (me included) - "If you're so smart, why aren't you happy?" I'm part way through it and it's been helpful. https://www.amazon.com/Youre-Smart-Why-Arent-Happy/dp/B01DYFUVRO https://www.amazon.com/Youre-Smart-Why-Arent-Happy/dp/B01DYF...

mc32 10y ago

I was hoping they would explore the karooshi phenomenon and how that came about and how it affects worker expectations.

xlayn 10y ago

Sometimes I suspect if this is not planned by media and corporations to get more from their employees.... I mean how can you defend the point of burnout and depression as a status symbol? I read here that on Facebook if you work after 5pm you have to do it hidden away from others.. because it means something is not ok, either the estimation, you are not communicating problems or VP/board/president/whoever want to exploit you.

CardenB 10y ago
With the amount of people who come in at noon I highly doubt that is the case.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
majewsky 10y ago
> I mean how can you defend the point of burnout and depression as a status symbol? I've always explained it away with the majority's staggering ignorance of mental health. Hanlon's razor calling.

m-i-l 10y ago

Exhaustion might have become a status symbol for workers, but according to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11821629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11821629 (http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jun/01/sleep-habits-eight-hours-health-wellness-arianna-huffington http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jun/01/sleep-ha... ) getting a good night's sleep is apparently the new status symbol for the elite.

uhtred 10y ago
Sometimes it just seems to uncannily perfect for the ruling classes.
- dominotw 10y ago
  I am not rich, just a regular person. I've slept as much as I've wanted all my life. Haven't used an alarm in over 10 yrs ( except when I've had to a catch a flight ect) . It has constantly puzzled my why people are sleep deprived. why?
  - rufius 10y ago
    I suspect a considerable portion can be attributed to FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out). Whether it's that new Netflix show, some snapchat celebrity, watching the news, getting stuck in a Wikipedia hole, or going out with people after working 11 hours. People will burn hours a day on these things. My wife is guilty of the Netflix and News descriptors mentioned above. I avoid the news and prefer to read but I still get stuck in the "one more chapter" hole. I am curious to know the breakdown of sleeping habits based on some simple personality distinguishers like introvert vs extrovert.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 10y ago
      I'm very introverted. I just go to bed when I'm tired.
  - 0xfeba 10y ago
    I can't stand not getting 8+ hours of sleep. So I usually do, save for when I get a new game, go out to see a movie (rarely), or some other special event. I don't understand people who constantly deprive themselves of sleep, willingly.

mrweasel 10y ago

I honestly think this is changing, it seems that people are becoming better at letting others know that they need/want to reduce their workload to avoid exhaustion or burnout. When I talk to people about wanting to work reduced hours, take a teaching job, or whatever is required to lower my stress level, I get nothing but encouragement. Working one self into the ground is starting to be seen as something stupid people do. Being able to take action before becoming exhausted is what smart and empowered people do. At least that's the impression that I get. Where I see the remaining issue it the lack of accountability for businesses. If a company push employees to exhaustion that should have hard repercussions than just gaining a reputation as a horrible place to work.

0xmohit 10y ago
> When I talk to people about wanting to work reduced hours, take a teaching job, or whatever is required to lower my stress level, I get nothing but encouragement. I guess that this depends a lot on the society that you're in. While it's a good thing, it's unfortunately that this doesn't really hold in various parts of the world.
- mrweasel 10y ago
  Absolutely. I think it helps tremendously to be a Scandinavian country.
- googletazer 10y ago
  Also depends on how willing you are to put your foot down, in any society.
ryandrake 10y ago
I'd love to reduce my workload and avoid exhaustion and burnout. But the simple fact is, for me, and I would assume most workers, doing so would mean inevitably slipping out of the middle class. My 50-60 hour weeks barely let me afford to live a 2-hour commute away from work. I don't know where I'd even live if I worked/made less. I know people who aren't working to burnout levels. They're not doing great. Living paycheck to paycheck and in tiny cramped apartments. Not ready for that lifestyle, myself.

0xmohit 10y ago

Recipe for burnout is inverse of recipe for success: https://imgur.com/a/5yrMm https://imgur.com/a/5yrMm Understanding Burnout [0] by Christina Maslach [1]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kLPyV8lBbs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kLPyV8lBbs [1] http://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/christina-maslach http://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/christina-maslach