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> There's another dynamic here, though: pure human expression is an inherently aristocratic thing. The early internet was dominated by academia, teen-agers with

by ashark 10y ago

> There's another dynamic here, though: pure human expression is an inherently aristocratic thing. The early internet was dominated by academia, teen-agers with lots of time to build their Geocities sites, and a handful of hobbyists doing it in the side. "Aristocratic" strikes me as a strange way to describe at least two of those categories, and they hardly seem undemocratic (to take your comparison) to me. I mean, "on the side" and in the free time of students is where practically all democratic activity occurs! The exceptions would be full-time politicians and those making money from democratic processes (for the governmental sense of "democratic"), and those widely seen as exploiting the weaknesses of democracy to their advantage (think: wealth's influence on democracy) but I think it's fair to characterize those parts as (probably necessary) accidents of democratic society rather than the core expression of it. What people do on the side is democracy, until the robots relieve us of our mostly-authoritarian day jobs (I'm not holding my breath on that one)

walterbell 10y ago
From an early democratic institution, the Citizens Assembly of Athens, http://www.agathe.gr/democracy/the_ekklesia.html http://www.agathe.gr/democracy/the_ekklesia.html "In an important democratic innovation, pay for attending the Ekklesia was instituted in about 400 B.C., thereby ensuring that everyone, including citizens of the working classes, could afford to participate in the political life of the city. Bronze or lead tokens were issued to those attending the meeting, and these could later be redeemed for the assemblyman's pay of two obols (one-third of a drachma) per session." The citizens assembly met every 10 days, so there were many opportunities for citizen participation.
- prance 10y ago
  Yes, participation is a difficult thing to ensure in a democracy, and even more so when it's online. A few years ago, I was a member of the German pirate party. We tried to implement "liquid democracy", using Liquid Feedback. It allows every party member to vote on anything or delegate their votes (based on categories, subcategories or single initiatives) to any other voter, and change those delegations at any time. Because of the known security problems with digital voting systems, the system was supposed to work only as a tool to form opinions. Initiatives were then put to final vote in real-life assemblies, where everyone was allowed to participate. We didn't have any "classical" delegates. Both of these steps posed their challenges in participation: - Liquid Feedback was not the easies tool to understand and use. For non-technical people, it was quite the challenge. And of course, a computer in the first place. - Full member real-life assemblies, particularly on a national level, require time and money for travel, accommodation etc. Because we didn't have "real" delegates, if you couldn't afford to go, you were out. There were some suggestions to overcome these issues (like a "permanent assembly" which would work by postal -snail mail- vote), but that never came to pass. (Or at least I think it didn't, I moved out of the country since then and don't follow that closely anymore.)

by ashark 10y ago

walterbell 10y ago

From an early democratic institution, the Citizens Assembly of Athens, http://www.agathe.gr/democracy/the_ekklesia.html http://www.agathe.gr/democracy/the_ekklesia.html "In an important democratic innovation, pay for attending the Ekklesia was instituted in about 400 B.C., thereby ensuring that everyone, including citizens of the working classes, could afford to participate in the political life of the city. Bronze or lead tokens were issued to those attending the meeting, and these could later be redeemed for the assemblyman's pay of two obols (one-third of a drachma) per session." The citizens assembly met every 10 days, so there were many opportunities for citizen participation.

prance 10y ago
Yes, participation is a difficult thing to ensure in a democracy, and even more so when it's online. A few years ago, I was a member of the German pirate party. We tried to implement "liquid democracy", using Liquid Feedback. It allows every party member to vote on anything or delegate their votes (based on categories, subcategories or single initiatives) to any other voter, and change those delegations at any time. Because of the known security problems with digital voting systems, the system was supposed to work only as a tool to form opinions. Initiatives were then put to final vote in real-life assemblies, where everyone was allowed to participate. We didn't have any "classical" delegates. Both of these steps posed their challenges in participation: - Liquid Feedback was not the easies tool to understand and use. For non-technical people, it was quite the challenge. And of course, a computer in the first place. - Full member real-life assemblies, particularly on a national level, require time and money for travel, accommodation etc. Because we didn't have "real" delegates, if you couldn't afford to go, you were out. There were some suggestions to overcome these issues (like a "permanent assembly" which would work by postal -snail mail- vote), but that never came to pass. (Or at least I think it didn't, I moved out of the country since then and don't follow that closely anymore.)