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> what's weird is the fact that we do sometimes kill ourselves when things look completely hopeless. The hope is always there, just change the purpose. Instea

by josemrb 10y ago

> what's weird is the fact that we do sometimes kill ourselves when things look completely hopeless. The hope is always there, just change the purpose. Instead of a life without suffering one expects to end the pain. That is the final hope that the suicidal people embrace.

goatforce5 10y ago
For most of us, committing suicide is unimaginable. Sometimes people find themselves in situations where the unimaginable is a better option than whatever it is they're facing. The act is equally horrific, but preferable to the alternative. > At least 200 people are believed to have fallen or jumped to their deaths [from the World Trade Centre on 9/11] while other estimates say the number is half of that or fewer. [...] > The New York City medical examiner's office said it does not classify the people who fell to their deaths on September 11 as "jumpers": "A 'jumper' is somebody who goes to the office in the morning knowing that they will commit suicide. These people were forced out by the smoke and flames or blown out." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falling_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falling_Man
- mikeash 10y ago
  I don't think the WTC jumpers are quite the same. They were faced with certain death or near certain death, and they naturally chose the latter. Falls from a great height are survivable, very very rarely. I see this an example of the human drive to survive: when faced with death, we'll try anything that offers any sort of hope, even just a slight delay.
  - goatforce5 10y ago
    > when faced with death, we'll try anything that offers any sort of hope, even just a slight delay Many people opt-out of aggressive cancer treatments that may add months on to their lives, and increasingly euthanasia is a (legal) alternative to letting medical conditions run their course. There are situations where ending things early can be one of the valid choices made available to you. http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/200381-the-so-called-psychotically-depressed-person-who-tries-to-kill-herself http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/200381-the-so-called-psychot...
    - mikeash 10y ago
      That's true, but I think there's a big difference between a long-standing condition and a brief crisis. I love the quote you linked to and I think it does a great job at giving people some perspective on what suicidal people are thinking. I just think the analogy falls apart once you start digging into it. Jumping out of the towers was a last-ditch attempt to survive, not just a better way to die.
      - goatforce5 10y ago
        > Jumping out of the towers was a last-ditch attempt to survive I'm not sure how it's possible to come to that conclusion. (And to be clear: I wasn't originally trying to suggest that everyone that fell from the WTC made a decision to jump. I think it's probably fair to say almost everyone that fell was simply trying to get away from the smoke by leaning out of windows, etc. )
        mikeash 10y ago
        I'm not sure how it's not. Certain death in the smoke and fire versus a slim chance of survival if you jump, seems like the rational choice in horrible circumstances.
        xhedley 10y ago
        I don't think it was about survival chance. Death by heat sufficient to kill you would surely be extremely painful. Death by fall impact from high enough would at least be quick. As either option was clearly fatal, jumping wasn't a deliberate choice for death and hence wasn't suicide.

by josemrb 10y ago

goatforce5 10y ago

For most of us, committing suicide is unimaginable. Sometimes people find themselves in situations where the unimaginable is a better option than whatever it is they're facing. The act is equally horrific, but preferable to the alternative. > At least 200 people are believed to have fallen or jumped to their deaths [from the World Trade Centre on 9/11] while other estimates say the number is half of that or fewer. [...] > The New York City medical examiner's office said it does not classify the people who fell to their deaths on September 11 as "jumpers": "A 'jumper' is somebody who goes to the office in the morning knowing that they will commit suicide. These people were forced out by the smoke and flames or blown out." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falling_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falling_Man

mikeash 10y ago
I don't think the WTC jumpers are quite the same. They were faced with certain death or near certain death, and they naturally chose the latter. Falls from a great height are survivable, very very rarely. I see this an example of the human drive to survive: when faced with death, we'll try anything that offers any sort of hope, even just a slight delay.
- goatforce5 10y ago
  > when faced with death, we'll try anything that offers any sort of hope, even just a slight delay Many people opt-out of aggressive cancer treatments that may add months on to their lives, and increasingly euthanasia is a (legal) alternative to letting medical conditions run their course. There are situations where ending things early can be one of the valid choices made available to you. http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/200381-the-so-called-psychotically-depressed-person-who-tries-to-kill-herself http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/200381-the-so-called-psychot...
  - mikeash 10y ago
    That's true, but I think there's a big difference between a long-standing condition and a brief crisis. I love the quote you linked to and I think it does a great job at giving people some perspective on what suicidal people are thinking. I just think the analogy falls apart once you start digging into it. Jumping out of the towers was a last-ditch attempt to survive, not just a better way to die.
    - goatforce5 10y ago
      > Jumping out of the towers was a last-ditch attempt to survive I'm not sure how it's possible to come to that conclusion. (And to be clear: I wasn't originally trying to suggest that everyone that fell from the WTC made a decision to jump. I think it's probably fair to say almost everyone that fell was simply trying to get away from the smoke by leaning out of windows, etc. )
      - mikeash 10y ago
        I'm not sure how it's not. Certain death in the smoke and fire versus a slim chance of survival if you jump, seems like the rational choice in horrible circumstances.
        xhedley 10y ago
        I don't think it was about survival chance. Death by heat sufficient to kill you would surely be extremely painful. Death by fall impact from high enough would at least be quick. As either option was clearly fatal, jumping wasn't a deliberate choice for death and hence wasn't suicide.