6 ms·

Are you being serious? The cap is $118,500, you think most programmers make more than $118,500 per year?

by criley2 10y ago

fennecfoxen 10y ago
In California? I'd hope that a typical developer makes around that much.
aetherson 10y ago
In the bay area, I'd expect median to be somewhat higher than that. Which is obviously not the entire world or country, but is where a lot of the focus of this forum is.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  Let me Google that for you. In the Bay Area, the average salary for a software engineer is $103K [1] - $110K [2], so below the cap. 1: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/a5e48575/San-Francisco-CA http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... 2: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en...
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    The median salary for all "Computer and Mathematical Occupations" for San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara for 2015 was $128,850, for Software Developers the medians were $147,220 (Applications -- there were 42,650 of these) and $142,950 (Systems Software -- there were 27,260). Of the programming-related occupations, Computer Programmers and Web Developers were lower than the cap, but very small numbers of people (6,510 @ $93,940 and 2,930 @ $107,500, respectively.) From 2015 BLS data, which is more comprehensive and representative than whatever payscale and glassdoor are using. [0] San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward is a little lower, but both kinds of Software Developers still average over $120K. [1] [0] http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41940.htm#15-0000 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41940.htm#15-0000 [1] http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41860.htm#15-0000 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41860.htm#15-0000
  - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
    Those use self-reported data which is unreliable and only San Francisco, which is only a small portion of the Bay Area. Using BLS data, which should be more reliable, for the San Francisco[1] and San Jose[2] metro areas, the average weighted by number of people in the job of annual mean wages for the job categories of "Computer Programmer", "Software Developer, Applications", "Software Developer, Systems" and "Web Developer" is $129,730.54. [1] http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41860.htm#15-0000 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41860.htm#15-0000 [2] http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41940.htm#15-0000 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41940.htm#15-0000
    - ryandrake 10y ago
      Thanks to you and dragonwriter for the links.. informative. So let's compromise on "It's right around the cap" :) Interesting that self-reported data is actually lower than the BLS figures--I'd have guessed it would be the opposite. A lot of people here like to humblebrag about how they "only" make $150K and how their stock options make their taxes so painful.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        > A lot of people here like to humblebrag about how they "only" make $150K and how their stock options make their taxes so painful. To be fair, as well as regional there is also industry variation, and a lot of people here work in the "Other Information Services" sector -- most online services would seem to be in that category -- which is (at least nationally) significantly above average pay for programming occupations. If that industry-based trend is also true for the region, then $150K for a developer could well be a below-median salary for region/occupation/industry combination.
  - aetherson 10y ago
    I looked at the Glassdoor data as well. Remember that they're looking narrowly at job titles. If you add "senior software engineers," their average is around $118k. If you add "software architects," their average is around $140k. And so forth. So if we're not talking about people with the job title "software engineer," but instead talking about people who are software engineers, including people who have a more advanced title, the average salary moves up.
lwhalen 10y ago
If they are any good at all, yes.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  That's not even close to true. The west coast is not the entire industry, no matter how much it likes to think it is.
  - alsetmusic 10y ago
    > The west coast is not the entire industry, no matter how much it likes to think it is. True, though many people live on the coast specifically because of its tech industry. Sweeping that away is no better than pretending that it's the only game in town.
  - jasonkester 10y ago
    It always makes me sad to see this same argument happen in every thread mentioning salary. Nobody ever wants to believe that their profession actually pays as much as it does. Yes, you can certainly find a company to pay you less than $100,000 to program computers for a living. That's not in dispute. But know that you (meaning you as well as anybody else anywhere in the US or the English speaking world) can also find a remote gig paying more than that. Good developers are very valuable. Even in the sticks. Please don't sell yourself short.
    - thedufer 10y ago
      While I usually appreciate this kind of talk, it's irrelevant here. How much a theoretical developer could make has no bearing on the median developer salary right now, which is solidly below 118k.
    - in_the_sticks 10y ago
      Ha. That's a good one. Employers appear to want you to be in at least a somewhat similar time zone as their core team and have some prior experience working remotely. Take this hypothetical person living in the sticks. 3.5 years of experience doing local development. No prior remote experience -> not given the time of day by remote shops -> can't get remote experience.
bemorecourteous 10y ago
Be more courteous.
hibikir 10y ago
A lot more than you'd think, after a few years of experience. 130k with benefits is par for the course in St.Louis for a full benefits senior programmer. Contracting, you can get way more: I reached the cap in August last year. In the Bay Area, if you don't make that kind of money, you better be living in company housing, or you will have trouble renting a closet by yourself. So yes, enough programmers make more than 120k for the payroll tax to be the same regardless.
- maerF0x0 10y ago
  In the bay area one can easily live on $100k a year. So long as they're willing to have a housemate (share a 2 bd room with someone else). Clearly not possible on a single income family, but either 1) Single person sharing a 2bd room place with someone els or 2) a dual income home renting a 2bd room place for their approximate 1 child. I see too many bay area people thinking that ubers and expensive meals out are the "bare minimum".
  - madelinecameron 10y ago
    I don't see how someone can rationalize that someone making $100k should have to have roommates. I am not saying they need more money, but I don't understand how we have gotten to the point of chiding people making six-figures like they work at McDonalds and want a BMW.
    - maerF0x0 10y ago
      Its simple. Prices are insane. So we expect people to do sane things, like live with other people. Much of the rest of the world does it, no reason North Americans cant.
douche 10y ago
I would hope that they do, if they have any experience and are actually good. I don't have that many years of experience, and am working for a rinky-dink small ISV well outside any kind of tech hub, and I'm not far off from that.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> The cap is $118,500, you think most programmers make more than $118,500 per year? On review of the data, no; I was actually thinking more narrowly of software developers rather than broadly to all programmers, and even then its a little high (though the median salary for application developers (Software Developers, Applications) in the Information sector is close to the cap. [0] Still, a substantial minority of programmers (broadly speaking) will be making above the cap, so reducing programmer salary in exchange for reduced hours will reduce payroll taxes by a substantially lower percentage than the percentage reduction in salary.

Are you being serious? The cap is $118,500, you think most programmers make more than $118,500 per year?

by criley2 10y ago

Are you being serious? The cap is $118,500, you think most programmers make more than $118,500 per year?

fennecfoxen 10y ago

In California? I'd hope that a typical developer makes around that much.

aetherson 10y ago

In the bay area, I'd expect median to be somewhat higher than that. Which is obviously not the entire world or country, but is where a lot of the focus of this forum is.

ryandrake 10y ago
Let me Google that for you. In the Bay Area, the average salary for a software engineer is $103K [1] - $110K [2], so below the cap. 1: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/a5e48575/San-Francisco-CA http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... 2: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en...
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  The median salary for all "Computer and Mathematical Occupations" for San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara for 2015 was $128,850, for Software Developers the medians were $147,220 (Applications -- there were 42,650 of these) and $142,950 (Systems Software -- there were 27,260). Of the programming-related occupations, Computer Programmers and Web Developers were lower than the cap, but very small numbers of people (6,510 @ $93,940 and 2,930 @ $107,500, respectively.) From 2015 BLS data, which is more comprehensive and representative than whatever payscale and glassdoor are using. [0] San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward is a little lower, but both kinds of Software Developers still average over $120K. [1] [0] http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41940.htm#15-0000 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41940.htm#15-0000 [1] http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41860.htm#15-0000 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41860.htm#15-0000
- TheCoelacanth 10y ago
  Those use self-reported data which is unreliable and only San Francisco, which is only a small portion of the Bay Area. Using BLS data, which should be more reliable, for the San Francisco[1] and San Jose[2] metro areas, the average weighted by number of people in the job of annual mean wages for the job categories of "Computer Programmer", "Software Developer, Applications", "Software Developer, Systems" and "Web Developer" is $129,730.54. [1] http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41860.htm#15-0000 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41860.htm#15-0000 [2] http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41940.htm#15-0000 http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41940.htm#15-0000
  - ryandrake 10y ago
    Thanks to you and dragonwriter for the links.. informative. So let's compromise on "It's right around the cap" :) Interesting that self-reported data is actually lower than the BLS figures--I'd have guessed it would be the opposite. A lot of people here like to humblebrag about how they "only" make $150K and how their stock options make their taxes so painful.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > A lot of people here like to humblebrag about how they "only" make $150K and how their stock options make their taxes so painful. To be fair, as well as regional there is also industry variation, and a lot of people here work in the "Other Information Services" sector -- most online services would seem to be in that category -- which is (at least nationally) significantly above average pay for programming occupations. If that industry-based trend is also true for the region, then $150K for a developer could well be a below-median salary for region/occupation/industry combination.
- aetherson 10y ago
  I looked at the Glassdoor data as well. Remember that they're looking narrowly at job titles. If you add "senior software engineers," their average is around $118k. If you add "software architects," their average is around $140k. And so forth. So if we're not talking about people with the job title "software engineer," but instead talking about people who are software engineers, including people who have a more advanced title, the average salary moves up.

lwhalen 10y ago

If they are any good at all, yes.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago
That's not even close to true. The west coast is not the entire industry, no matter how much it likes to think it is.
- alsetmusic 10y ago
  > The west coast is not the entire industry, no matter how much it likes to think it is. True, though many people live on the coast specifically because of its tech industry. Sweeping that away is no better than pretending that it's the only game in town.
- jasonkester 10y ago
  It always makes me sad to see this same argument happen in every thread mentioning salary. Nobody ever wants to believe that their profession actually pays as much as it does. Yes, you can certainly find a company to pay you less than $100,000 to program computers for a living. That's not in dispute. But know that you (meaning you as well as anybody else anywhere in the US or the English speaking world) can also find a remote gig paying more than that. Good developers are very valuable. Even in the sticks. Please don't sell yourself short.
  - thedufer 10y ago
    While I usually appreciate this kind of talk, it's irrelevant here. How much a theoretical developer could make has no bearing on the median developer salary right now, which is solidly below 118k.
  - in_the_sticks 10y ago
    Ha. That's a good one. Employers appear to want you to be in at least a somewhat similar time zone as their core team and have some prior experience working remotely. Take this hypothetical person living in the sticks. 3.5 years of experience doing local development. No prior remote experience -> not given the time of day by remote shops -> can't get remote experience.

bemorecourteous 10y ago

Be more courteous.

hibikir 10y ago

A lot more than you'd think, after a few years of experience. 130k with benefits is par for the course in St.Louis for a full benefits senior programmer. Contracting, you can get way more: I reached the cap in August last year. In the Bay Area, if you don't make that kind of money, you better be living in company housing, or you will have trouble renting a closet by yourself. So yes, enough programmers make more than 120k for the payroll tax to be the same regardless.

maerF0x0 10y ago
In the bay area one can easily live on $100k a year. So long as they're willing to have a housemate (share a 2 bd room with someone else). Clearly not possible on a single income family, but either 1) Single person sharing a 2bd room place with someone els or 2) a dual income home renting a 2bd room place for their approximate 1 child. I see too many bay area people thinking that ubers and expensive meals out are the "bare minimum".
- madelinecameron 10y ago
  I don't see how someone can rationalize that someone making $100k should have to have roommates. I am not saying they need more money, but I don't understand how we have gotten to the point of chiding people making six-figures like they work at McDonalds and want a BMW.
  - maerF0x0 10y ago
    Its simple. Prices are insane. So we expect people to do sane things, like live with other people. Much of the rest of the world does it, no reason North Americans cant.

douche 10y ago

I would hope that they do, if they have any experience and are actually good. I don't have that many years of experience, and am working for a rinky-dink small ISV well outside any kind of tech hub, and I'm not far off from that.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> The cap is $118,500, you think most programmers make more than $118,500 per year? On review of the data, no; I was actually thinking more narrowly of software developers rather than broadly to all programmers, and even then its a little high (though the median salary for application developers (Software Developers, Applications) in the Information sector is close to the cap. [0] Still, a substantial minority of programmers (broadly speaking) will be making above the cap, so reducing programmer salary in exchange for reduced hours will reduce payroll taxes by a substantially lower percentage than the percentage reduction in salary.