90 ms·

My thoughts are that if you use either platform for anything other than entertainment you're a fool. Seriously, here's your competition: https://en.wikipedia.o

My thoughts are that if you use either platform for anything other than entertainment you're a fool. Seriously, here's your competition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Technologies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Technologies How deluded do you have to be to think you have an edge over that?

asdkjasdkj 10y ago
This level of defeatism is the exact reason I got into the markets algo trading. People like you stay out. More to the point, just because a genius mathematician and code breaker started a hedge fund it doesn't at all push out any of the little guys. The market is so large he can't possibly be trading all instruments at once, and "scaling" is a problem for huge hedge funds. Especially ones that have to answer to their shareholders. Even though this is a huge fund, it is highly inflexible. What you're saying is akin to "Google already does email and they're loaded with geniuses, what makes you think you have an edge over that?"
- Fomite 10y ago
  In fairness, if someone told me they were going to make a killing on free webmail supported by ads and data mining, I think "How on earth do you intend to complete with Google?" would be a perfectly legitimate question.
  - Enzolangellotti 10y ago
    In fairness, by that logic nothing would ever get done. Microsoft? You're never going to win over IBM. Xerox? You'll always be ancillary to Kodak. GM? Ford is already there. The Fugger's Banking company? Good luck against the Venetians and the Florentines. Same old story. At the end of the day, you either try something new or you don't.
    - ori_b 10y ago
      > In fairness, by that logic nothing would ever get done. Or it will get done by people who have thought long and hard about how they are going to compete with the giants, rather than someone naïve sap. The fact that the question is being asked does not imply that there are no good answers to it, but it is unlikely that someone who hasn't spent time considering how to improve on the incumbents is going to beat them.
      - Enzolangellotti 10y ago
        Indeed, but nobody (I certainly wasn't) was advocating to not do your homework and evaluate your risk. Sometimes, however, things just happen, for example James Simons stumbled upon the industry by chance. How many companies were motivated by killer instinct? Did Gates want to kill IBM? Did Xerox plan to kill Kodak (they didn't but they serendipitously started a revolution)?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - Fomite 10y ago
      Only if they don't have a good answer to the question.
  - flatM 10y ago
    Dropbox vs OneDrive or Google Drive could be a better example here.
- empath75 10y ago
  Comparative advantage. Even if they're absolutely better than you at every possible strategy, there are still going to be opportunities in markets that it isn't worth their time to invest in.
gnaritas 10y ago
> Seriously, here's your competition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Technologies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Technologies Incorrect for the reasons pointed out above, they're trading size, you're likely not, it's a completely different game for them in a completely different field due to their liquidity needs. They are not your competition.
nl 10y ago
This isn't true. There are a non-zero number of traders who use IB and post positive returns. For example Taaffeite Capital Management (who gained some publicity for good returns on Brexit) are a < $10mm fund who use IB[1]. Sure, bigger funds have better market access, and it will always be impossible to implement a high frequency trading approach. But these platforms are about as good as a small player can get. [1] http://www.afr.com/personal-finance/shares/artificial-intelligence-yields-huge-returns-from-brexit-20160705-gpza32 http://www.afr.com/personal-finance/shares/artificial-intell...
- seagreen 10y ago
  Dr. Lun has a PhD from MIT and is doing original AI research. If that's your profile then do what you want=)
  - akg_67 10y ago
    Don't get impressed by credentials and buzzwords. A lot of people had and are having success without credentials. The investing, trading domain is large enough to accommodate different approaches and wide variety of skill set. It is not the domain of a few chosen or privileged ones.
  - nl 10y ago
    There are plenty of MIT PhDs very successfully losing money. I think this goes directly to the "if you use these platforms you are a fool" comment. It seems to me that some people who aren't fools use the platforms, and some who are, don't. Also, this is HN. Pretty sure there is more than one MIT PhD reading this, and I know there is more than one doing original AI research. Bring this comment to mind: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/28911860225 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/28911860225 (exact comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079)
    - seagreen 10y ago
      "if you use these platforms you are a fool" Hey, that's not fair, you're arguing against half my point! I said if you use these platforms _and don't have a reason to think you've got an advantage_ you shouldn't be doing so. Lun and his peers are an exception to this. If you want to make a second argument and say he shouldn't be trading go ahead (and I'll try to back you up), but my original point was about the 99.9% who aren't Lun and are clearly just fish.

asdkjasdkj 10y ago

This level of defeatism is the exact reason I got into the markets algo trading. People like you stay out. More to the point, just because a genius mathematician and code breaker started a hedge fund it doesn't at all push out any of the little guys. The market is so large he can't possibly be trading all instruments at once, and "scaling" is a problem for huge hedge funds. Especially ones that have to answer to their shareholders. Even though this is a huge fund, it is highly inflexible. What you're saying is akin to "Google already does email and they're loaded with geniuses, what makes you think you have an edge over that?"

Fomite 10y ago
In fairness, if someone told me they were going to make a killing on free webmail supported by ads and data mining, I think "How on earth do you intend to complete with Google?" would be a perfectly legitimate question.
- Enzolangellotti 10y ago
  In fairness, by that logic nothing would ever get done. Microsoft? You're never going to win over IBM. Xerox? You'll always be ancillary to Kodak. GM? Ford is already there. The Fugger's Banking company? Good luck against the Venetians and the Florentines. Same old story. At the end of the day, you either try something new or you don't.
  - ori_b 10y ago
    > In fairness, by that logic nothing would ever get done. Or it will get done by people who have thought long and hard about how they are going to compete with the giants, rather than someone naïve sap. The fact that the question is being asked does not imply that there are no good answers to it, but it is unlikely that someone who hasn't spent time considering how to improve on the incumbents is going to beat them.
    - Enzolangellotti 10y ago
      Indeed, but nobody (I certainly wasn't) was advocating to not do your homework and evaluate your risk. Sometimes, however, things just happen, for example James Simons stumbled upon the industry by chance. How many companies were motivated by killer instinct? Did Gates want to kill IBM? Did Xerox plan to kill Kodak (they didn't but they serendipitously started a revolution)?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - Fomite 10y ago
    Only if they don't have a good answer to the question.
- flatM 10y ago
  Dropbox vs OneDrive or Google Drive could be a better example here.
empath75 10y ago
Comparative advantage. Even if they're absolutely better than you at every possible strategy, there are still going to be opportunities in markets that it isn't worth their time to invest in.

gnaritas 10y ago

> Seriously, here's your competition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Technologies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Technologies Incorrect for the reasons pointed out above, they're trading size, you're likely not, it's a completely different game for them in a completely different field due to their liquidity needs. They are not your competition.

nl 10y ago

This isn't true. There are a non-zero number of traders who use IB and post positive returns. For example Taaffeite Capital Management (who gained some publicity for good returns on Brexit) are a < $10mm fund who use IB[1]. Sure, bigger funds have better market access, and it will always be impossible to implement a high frequency trading approach. But these platforms are about as good as a small player can get. [1] http://www.afr.com/personal-finance/shares/artificial-intelligence-yields-huge-returns-from-brexit-20160705-gpza32 http://www.afr.com/personal-finance/shares/artificial-intell...

seagreen 10y ago
Dr. Lun has a PhD from MIT and is doing original AI research. If that's your profile then do what you want=)
- akg_67 10y ago
  Don't get impressed by credentials and buzzwords. A lot of people had and are having success without credentials. The investing, trading domain is large enough to accommodate different approaches and wide variety of skill set. It is not the domain of a few chosen or privileged ones.
- nl 10y ago
  There are plenty of MIT PhDs very successfully losing money. I think this goes directly to the "if you use these platforms you are a fool" comment. It seems to me that some people who aren't fools use the platforms, and some who are, don't. Also, this is HN. Pretty sure there is more than one MIT PhD reading this, and I know there is more than one doing original AI research. Bring this comment to mind: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/28911860225 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/28911860225 (exact comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079)
  - seagreen 10y ago
    "if you use these platforms you are a fool" Hey, that's not fair, you're arguing against half my point! I said if you use these platforms _and don't have a reason to think you've got an advantage_ you shouldn't be doing so. Lun and his peers are an exception to this. If you want to make a second argument and say he shouldn't be trading go ahead (and I'll try to back you up), but my original point was about the 99.9% who aren't Lun and are clearly just fish.