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My argument doesn't entail that the Chinese and US governments are equal. Google could also decide to only partially censor google.cn, perhaps removing the Tie

My argument doesn't entail that the Chinese and US governments are equal. Google could also decide to only partially censor google.cn, perhaps removing the Tienanmen square stuff but leaving in some of the Falun Dafa links. That Google makes big, bold moves in China and yet does NOTHING about the US... it could even host SOME wikileaks content... suggests hypocrisy or at least a business focus rather than a humanitarian one. I don't think it's a coincidence that Google acts bold in the one market in the world where it is losing... allowing it to leave gracefully. I'm half tempted to write some sort of wikileaks mirror on app engine and see how long it stays up.

poutine 17y ago
Well yes, of course Google is a self-interested corporation whose likely reasons for acting are much more complicated than the public story. All the do no evil stuff is marketing and self delusion by Google'ers. Does this surprise you?
- grandalf 17y ago
  You should explain why you applaud Google and yet demand nothing of Google for the anti-censorship cause when it pertains to the US. My hypotheses would be: - you do not like China's regime and so any anti-china propaganda is good. - you feel that all US censorship laws are good, thus you have no issue whatsoever with the US approach to Wikileaks. - You think that all governments censor a little, but only the ones that censor a lot are bad.
  - poutine 17y ago
    I did not and would not applaud Google. They're a massive and soul-less multinational with far too much influence over the Internet. You are mostly incorrect in your hypotheses: - While I indeed do not like the Chinese regime I see lots of anti Chinese propaganda that I do not like. - I do not like any censorship whatsoever, and thus any attempt by any government to censor to any extent is bad and should not be tolerated. - Wikileaks deserves to be supported and is indeed a great service. I am a non-American westerner that has lived in China for several years and have had personal experience with the censorship there and the way that nationalism and controlled information shapes and corrupts people's minds. It's awful. I take issue with your initial statement to try to draw equivalence between China and the US. It isn't equivalent at all and drawing any equivalence detracts from the horrible consequences that the Chinese regime has on its people and the world.
    - grandalf 17y ago
      I mainly disagree with your last sentence. I don't think it detracts. But if I had to choose which I think Americans should be more angry about... on one hand the US treatment of illegals and prisoners, and on the other hand the Chinese government. I'd say that Americans should definitely be far more concerned with the former. What do you get when citizens of one regime care too much about citizens in another? Neoconservatism. I don't think it's a coincidence that this is occurring just at the time when the US is attempting to start a trade war with China (see the tariffs started by Obama and some of the fallacious and destructive rhetoric on China's currency spouted by Paul Krugman). How is this any different than the way Bush sold the Iraq/Afghan war -- he cited treatment of women and religious persecution and taliban censorship. The ultimate result of all this is that war with China will be far more likely. The US propaganda approach to sell war starts with feeling sorry for "them" because of their "backward" social customs, with a focus on the impact upon women... then moves to indignation, then a call to action / call to war. Consider how many Americans believe strongly that going to war in Iraq and killing MILLIONS is a humanitarian improvement over Saddam's rule. Before that we killed millions of children via sanctions. Talk about shaping and corrupting people's minds. It's always easier to see the corruption and shaping of minds from across an ocean, but that doesn't mean we're not all very corrupted and misguided here. I think our primary responsibility is at home... let's leave the neocon warmongering to someone else and act where we have clout, not just join a big hurrah anti-China bandwagon.
      - poutine 17y ago
        Well, both the USA and China are foreign countries to me and this is an (albeit US dominated) international forum so I'm not swayed by your 'at home' argument. However I am more concerned with what is happening with the US than China even given the mismatch in scale and extent of the Chinese condition. The US has a far wider impact on the world as a whole than China. This doesn't really change my argument: from an objective standpoint China is a much nastier place than the USA for freedoms and human rights.
        grandalf 17y ago

poutine 17y ago

Well yes, of course Google is a self-interested corporation whose likely reasons for acting are much more complicated than the public story. All the do no evil stuff is marketing and self delusion by Google'ers. Does this surprise you?

grandalf 17y ago
You should explain why you applaud Google and yet demand nothing of Google for the anti-censorship cause when it pertains to the US. My hypotheses would be: - you do not like China's regime and so any anti-china propaganda is good. - you feel that all US censorship laws are good, thus you have no issue whatsoever with the US approach to Wikileaks. - You think that all governments censor a little, but only the ones that censor a lot are bad.
- poutine 17y ago
  I did not and would not applaud Google. They're a massive and soul-less multinational with far too much influence over the Internet. You are mostly incorrect in your hypotheses: - While I indeed do not like the Chinese regime I see lots of anti Chinese propaganda that I do not like. - I do not like any censorship whatsoever, and thus any attempt by any government to censor to any extent is bad and should not be tolerated. - Wikileaks deserves to be supported and is indeed a great service. I am a non-American westerner that has lived in China for several years and have had personal experience with the censorship there and the way that nationalism and controlled information shapes and corrupts people's minds. It's awful. I take issue with your initial statement to try to draw equivalence between China and the US. It isn't equivalent at all and drawing any equivalence detracts from the horrible consequences that the Chinese regime has on its people and the world.
  - grandalf 17y ago
    I mainly disagree with your last sentence. I don't think it detracts. But if I had to choose which I think Americans should be more angry about... on one hand the US treatment of illegals and prisoners, and on the other hand the Chinese government. I'd say that Americans should definitely be far more concerned with the former. What do you get when citizens of one regime care too much about citizens in another? Neoconservatism. I don't think it's a coincidence that this is occurring just at the time when the US is attempting to start a trade war with China (see the tariffs started by Obama and some of the fallacious and destructive rhetoric on China's currency spouted by Paul Krugman). How is this any different than the way Bush sold the Iraq/Afghan war -- he cited treatment of women and religious persecution and taliban censorship. The ultimate result of all this is that war with China will be far more likely. The US propaganda approach to sell war starts with feeling sorry for "them" because of their "backward" social customs, with a focus on the impact upon women... then moves to indignation, then a call to action / call to war. Consider how many Americans believe strongly that going to war in Iraq and killing MILLIONS is a humanitarian improvement over Saddam's rule. Before that we killed millions of children via sanctions. Talk about shaping and corrupting people's minds. It's always easier to see the corruption and shaping of minds from across an ocean, but that doesn't mean we're not all very corrupted and misguided here. I think our primary responsibility is at home... let's leave the neocon warmongering to someone else and act where we have clout, not just join a big hurrah anti-China bandwagon.
    - poutine 17y ago
      Well, both the USA and China are foreign countries to me and this is an (albeit US dominated) international forum so I'm not swayed by your 'at home' argument. However I am more concerned with what is happening with the US than China even given the mismatch in scale and extent of the Chinese condition. The US has a far wider impact on the world as a whole than China. This doesn't really change my argument: from an objective standpoint China is a much nastier place than the USA for freedoms and human rights.
      - grandalf 17y ago