4 ms·

So you think only success is punishable? So if someone takes a swing at you, it's only assault if they connect? If someone takes a shot, it's only illegal if

by dpark 10y ago

So you think only success is punishable? So if someone takes a swing at you, it's only assault if they connect? If someone takes a shot, it's only illegal if the bullet hits you? If someone tries to break into your house, it's legal until they get inside? Or are computers special for some reason?

ploxiln 10y ago
Computers are indeed not like any of these things. I would compare to chatting with someone and talking them into committing suicide. Wasn't there a court case about this a couple of years ago? This is something that is only considered a serious crime if it is successful. Otherwise, it's just being creepy and annoying, who would accept those calls/chats anyway. It's unfortunate that people accept and even love fundamentally unsafe designs of computer operation, where they are not in complete control of what their computer does, and then get upset when their computer does something quite actively opposite of what they wanted. This is inevitable! The biggest difference is in the prevalence.
- dpark 10y ago
  > Computers are indeed not like any of these things. None of those things are really like the others either, except that they are all still (lesser) crimes even if you're not successful. > I would compare to chatting with someone and talking them into committing suicide. Wasn't there a court case about this a couple of years ago? This is something that is only considered a serious crime if it is successful. Otherwise, it's just being creepy and annoying, who would accept those calls/chats anyway. Probably depends on the state. If it's a crime to convince someone to commit suicide, it's probably a crime to attempt to do so. In California, attempting a crime is a crime in itself. > It's unfortunate that people accept and even love fundamentally unsafe designs of computer operation, where they are not in complete control of what their computer does, and then get upset when their computer does something quite actively opposite of what they wanted. This is inevitable! The biggest difference is in the prevalence. "Fundamentally unsafe"? Unplug your computer if you want fundamentally safe. Otherwise you are always fundamentally unsafe. Access to your house is not "fundamentally safe", but if someone kicks in your door and barges in, few will tell you that it's your fault that for not living in a concrete bunker.
washadjeffmad 10y ago
Computers are special for some reason. I can't punch you in the face over the computer, but I can take a swing at you in front of my monitor even I don't know where you are afk. Is that alright under the law? That was rhetorical; of course it's alright. I'm doing it right now, for all you know. And yeah, it's not possible B&E until you('re caught) B&E. You might have to commit trespass to get that close, but that's a different law. The perversion is when you get charged with B&E for walking into a building open to the public just because security didn't stop you from going inside.
- tptacek 10y ago
  I'm not following. You can definitely be prosecuted for attempting to break and enter into a house. The distinction between doing that and entering a building open to the public is exactly the distinction the CFAA makes.
- dpark 10y ago
  > Computers are special for some reason. And what reason is that? > I can't punch you in the face over the computer, but I can take a swing at you in front of my monitor even I don't know where you are afk. Is that alright under the law? That's not taking a swing at me. That's you swinging wildly in the air in front of your monitor. Yes, that's legal, if pointless. > And yeah, it's not possible B&E until you('re caught) B&E. You might have to commit trespass to get that close, but that's a different law. As Thomas noted, attempted breaking and entering is a crime as well. > The perversion is when you get charged with B&E for walking into a building open to the public just because security didn't stop you from going inside. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that unauthorized access is like breaking and entering? A better analog for the case here is trespass. You won't be guilty of breaking and entering if you enter a mall after being asked to stay out, but you will be guilty of trespass. No one is required to post guards to keep you out. Simply tell you is enough to legally obligate you to stay out.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
rblatz 10y ago
No it's assault when you make the other person fear for their safety. It's only battery if the punch connects though.
- dpark 10y ago
  It doesn't stop being assault when you successfully hit the person. It's assault and battery in that case.

by dpark 10y ago

ploxiln 10y ago

Computers are indeed not like any of these things. I would compare to chatting with someone and talking them into committing suicide. Wasn't there a court case about this a couple of years ago? This is something that is only considered a serious crime if it is successful. Otherwise, it's just being creepy and annoying, who would accept those calls/chats anyway. It's unfortunate that people accept and even love fundamentally unsafe designs of computer operation, where they are not in complete control of what their computer does, and then get upset when their computer does something quite actively opposite of what they wanted. This is inevitable! The biggest difference is in the prevalence.

dpark 10y ago
> Computers are indeed not like any of these things. None of those things are really like the others either, except that they are all still (lesser) crimes even if you're not successful. > I would compare to chatting with someone and talking them into committing suicide. Wasn't there a court case about this a couple of years ago? This is something that is only considered a serious crime if it is successful. Otherwise, it's just being creepy and annoying, who would accept those calls/chats anyway. Probably depends on the state. If it's a crime to convince someone to commit suicide, it's probably a crime to attempt to do so. In California, attempting a crime is a crime in itself. > It's unfortunate that people accept and even love fundamentally unsafe designs of computer operation, where they are not in complete control of what their computer does, and then get upset when their computer does something quite actively opposite of what they wanted. This is inevitable! The biggest difference is in the prevalence. "Fundamentally unsafe"? Unplug your computer if you want fundamentally safe. Otherwise you are always fundamentally unsafe. Access to your house is not "fundamentally safe", but if someone kicks in your door and barges in, few will tell you that it's your fault that for not living in a concrete bunker.

washadjeffmad 10y ago

Computers are special for some reason. I can't punch you in the face over the computer, but I can take a swing at you in front of my monitor even I don't know where you are afk. Is that alright under the law? That was rhetorical; of course it's alright. I'm doing it right now, for all you know. And yeah, it's not possible B&E until you('re caught) B&E. You might have to commit trespass to get that close, but that's a different law. The perversion is when you get charged with B&E for walking into a building open to the public just because security didn't stop you from going inside.

tptacek 10y ago
I'm not following. You can definitely be prosecuted for attempting to break and enter into a house. The distinction between doing that and entering a building open to the public is exactly the distinction the CFAA makes.
dpark 10y ago
> Computers are special for some reason. And what reason is that? > I can't punch you in the face over the computer, but I can take a swing at you in front of my monitor even I don't know where you are afk. Is that alright under the law? That's not taking a swing at me. That's you swinging wildly in the air in front of your monitor. Yes, that's legal, if pointless. > And yeah, it's not possible B&E until you('re caught) B&E. You might have to commit trespass to get that close, but that's a different law. As Thomas noted, attempted breaking and entering is a crime as well. > The perversion is when you get charged with B&E for walking into a building open to the public just because security didn't stop you from going inside. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that unauthorized access is like breaking and entering? A better analog for the case here is trespass. You won't be guilty of breaking and entering if you enter a mall after being asked to stay out, but you will be guilty of trespass. No one is required to post guards to keep you out. Simply tell you is enough to legally obligate you to stay out.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

rblatz 10y ago

No it's assault when you make the other person fear for their safety. It's only battery if the punch connects though.

dpark 10y ago
It doesn't stop being assault when you successfully hit the person. It's assault and battery in that case.