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Would we buy "Government Software"? What about "Government computers"? Any of you tried to go to the California DMV's in the Bay Area lately? How is Governme

Would we buy "Government Software"? What about "Government computers"? Any of you tried to go to the California DMV's in the Bay Area lately? How is Government single-payer health care (the VA) working out for veterans? Given this sentiment why do we feel like single-payer Government schools are the answer to educating our children? I just don't see how we can get incentives inside of a government system to align with our goals of efficiently educating our children.

justin_vanw 10y ago
Why does the DMV even exist? If we didn't have driving tests, would it really matter at all? Do we need all this paperwork to own a car? What if we didn't have any of it at all? Does anyone think that some 16 year old who barely passes the driving test is any better of a driver than that same 16 year old who didn't have to take the test? The DMV just shouldn't exist. We could abolish it tomorrow, fire all the employees, and spend the money on useful things. Literally nothing would happen, nothing would change.
- Kephael 10y ago
  You'd have children trying to drive on the road before they are ready and crashing into things with great frequency.
  - justin_vanw 10y ago
    So again, how is that different from now?
    - pikzen 10y ago
      Greater frequency. And let's not forget that driving tests are not standardised in the US amongst states. So depending on where you live, your test could either have been something that really checks if you know how your car works, how to safely do maneuvers, how to react to emergencies and how to drive with other cars on the road, or it might have just checked that you can drive around a block. Fix your driving licence tests at a national level, then maybe you'll see how the DMV is useful.
      - seanp2k2 10y ago
        ...but that's not how it is now, so I agree that right now, the DMV mostly exists to collect tax on vehicle registrations, license fees, title transfers, and other annoying paperwork-heavy things. The smog test industry is pretty scammy (you can find "a guy who knows a guy" who can get your unable-to-pass vehicle's paperwork done with little effort) and the license stuff could be handled online in conjunction with drivers Ed schools (since IIRC you have to take classes before you can take the test anyway).
justin_vanw 10y ago
So 'single payer government schools' work fine in areas where the adults are themselves educated. They work poorly in areas where the adults are not well educated. No variable you can change will make a dramatic impact. If the parents aren't educated, they can't tell whether the school is good or bad. In that case, they are going to be conned by charlatans, it's just a question of government charlatans or private charlatans. If the parents are educated, they won't send their kids to a crappy school, and will either use money saved by living in a worse school district to help pay for private school, or will move. Either way, educated parents who care will not send their kids to garbage schools. The net of all that is that dumber, less educated people will end up with dumber, less educated children because they don't know how to get their children a good education, or even how to tell the difference between good and bad schools. How you pay the bill or how you organize it will not matter, and studies have shown this over and over.
rabboRubble 10y ago
The problem isn't government, the problem is US government. I've seen plenty of examples in other countries of government working well. Roads free of potholes. Trains that penetrate every part of the country, are well maintained, and run on time. Public school education that provides literacy rates in the 90%+ range. Single payer national health care systems that are cost effective and beloved by the people under those systems' care. Our US government failures are an extension of our public's lack of commitment to the funding and policy needed for good government service. The problem is us.
- elgabogringo 10y ago
  Care to give actual examples? Sounds like you are living in a different world than I am... And the "trains run on time" argument... Hmm... where have we heard that before?
  - rabboRubble 10y ago
    I lived overseas for a great while, so some of this is first hand observation. I hold the equivalent of a US green card in a foreign country and worked extensively through Asia followed then by Europe. Roads without potholes : Germany, Japan https://seattletransitblog.com/2009/04/17/japans-highways/ https://seattletransitblog.com/2009/04/17/japans-highways/ http://bridgemi.com/2014/04/why-are-germanys-roads-better-or-are-they/ http://bridgemi.com/2014/04/why-are-germanys-roads-better-or... (after a more detailed read, this article doesn't support my point, but it's still interesting. And the roads in Germany were nice when I drove on them.) Trains running on time : Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea (I heard horror stories about the UK system, but it worked well enough for me when I've gone there) http://kotaku.com/ever-wonder-why-japanese-trains-arent-late-heres-why-1547844128 http://kotaku.com/ever-wonder-why-japanese-trains-arent-late... Countries by literacy rate : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_... (You have to go down to Syria to for the equivalent US literacy rate. We don't report our figures, but a quick Google search puts it about 86%) Beloved national Health systems: Canada, France, even the UK's NHS http://www.gallup.com/poll/8056/healthcare-system-ratings-us-great-britain-canada.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/8056/healthcare-system-ratings-us... http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04/14/health-care-around-the-world-france/ http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04/14/health-care-aroun... Hope this helps~

justin_vanw 10y ago

Why does the DMV even exist? If we didn't have driving tests, would it really matter at all? Do we need all this paperwork to own a car? What if we didn't have any of it at all? Does anyone think that some 16 year old who barely passes the driving test is any better of a driver than that same 16 year old who didn't have to take the test? The DMV just shouldn't exist. We could abolish it tomorrow, fire all the employees, and spend the money on useful things. Literally nothing would happen, nothing would change.

Kephael 10y ago
You'd have children trying to drive on the road before they are ready and crashing into things with great frequency.
- justin_vanw 10y ago
  So again, how is that different from now?
  - pikzen 10y ago
    Greater frequency. And let's not forget that driving tests are not standardised in the US amongst states. So depending on where you live, your test could either have been something that really checks if you know how your car works, how to safely do maneuvers, how to react to emergencies and how to drive with other cars on the road, or it might have just checked that you can drive around a block. Fix your driving licence tests at a national level, then maybe you'll see how the DMV is useful.
    - seanp2k2 10y ago
      ...but that's not how it is now, so I agree that right now, the DMV mostly exists to collect tax on vehicle registrations, license fees, title transfers, and other annoying paperwork-heavy things. The smog test industry is pretty scammy (you can find "a guy who knows a guy" who can get your unable-to-pass vehicle's paperwork done with little effort) and the license stuff could be handled online in conjunction with drivers Ed schools (since IIRC you have to take classes before you can take the test anyway).

justin_vanw 10y ago

So 'single payer government schools' work fine in areas where the adults are themselves educated. They work poorly in areas where the adults are not well educated. No variable you can change will make a dramatic impact. If the parents aren't educated, they can't tell whether the school is good or bad. In that case, they are going to be conned by charlatans, it's just a question of government charlatans or private charlatans. If the parents are educated, they won't send their kids to a crappy school, and will either use money saved by living in a worse school district to help pay for private school, or will move. Either way, educated parents who care will not send their kids to garbage schools. The net of all that is that dumber, less educated people will end up with dumber, less educated children because they don't know how to get their children a good education, or even how to tell the difference between good and bad schools. How you pay the bill or how you organize it will not matter, and studies have shown this over and over.

rabboRubble 10y ago

The problem isn't government, the problem is US government. I've seen plenty of examples in other countries of government working well. Roads free of potholes. Trains that penetrate every part of the country, are well maintained, and run on time. Public school education that provides literacy rates in the 90%+ range. Single payer national health care systems that are cost effective and beloved by the people under those systems' care. Our US government failures are an extension of our public's lack of commitment to the funding and policy needed for good government service. The problem is us.

elgabogringo 10y ago
Care to give actual examples? Sounds like you are living in a different world than I am... And the "trains run on time" argument... Hmm... where have we heard that before?
- rabboRubble 10y ago
  I lived overseas for a great while, so some of this is first hand observation. I hold the equivalent of a US green card in a foreign country and worked extensively through Asia followed then by Europe. Roads without potholes : Germany, Japan https://seattletransitblog.com/2009/04/17/japans-highways/ https://seattletransitblog.com/2009/04/17/japans-highways/ http://bridgemi.com/2014/04/why-are-germanys-roads-better-or-are-they/ http://bridgemi.com/2014/04/why-are-germanys-roads-better-or... (after a more detailed read, this article doesn't support my point, but it's still interesting. And the roads in Germany were nice when I drove on them.) Trains running on time : Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea (I heard horror stories about the UK system, but it worked well enough for me when I've gone there) http://kotaku.com/ever-wonder-why-japanese-trains-arent-late-heres-why-1547844128 http://kotaku.com/ever-wonder-why-japanese-trains-arent-late... Countries by literacy rate : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_... (You have to go down to Syria to for the equivalent US literacy rate. We don't report our figures, but a quick Google search puts it about 86%) Beloved national Health systems: Canada, France, even the UK's NHS http://www.gallup.com/poll/8056/healthcare-system-ratings-us-great-britain-canada.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/8056/healthcare-system-ratings-us... http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04/14/health-care-around-the-world-france/ http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04/14/health-care-aroun... Hope this helps~