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> virtually all of them were built on mountains of spam and bad/unethical/illegal behavior, This simply isn't true. There are a few who did that, but they're

> virtually all of them were built on mountains of spam and bad/unethical/illegal behavior, This simply isn't true. There are a few who did that, but they're the exception, not the rule. Shady unicorns: Uber (too many to count), AirBNB (spam), DropBox (lied about encryption/security), The Honest Co (lied about product quality) Not Shady unicorns: Xiaomi, Palantir, Snapchat, SpaceX, Pinterest, Spotify, DJI, Intarcia, Stripe, Vice, CreditKarma, CloudFlare, BloomEnergy, Fanatics, Slack, Blue Apron, GitHub, Domo, SurveyMonkey, BlaBlaCar, Lyft, MongoDB, Buzzfeed, Cloudera, Automatic, EventBrite, Evernote, Warby Parker, Docker... The narrative that "everybody cheats" is just something that cheaters tell themselves, so they can pretend that their behavior was warranted. That said, it's worth discussing these things before applying to a company, because dishonesty creates massive risk in the company, so if you hear and answer that sounds like 'downandout's, you need to devalue that company, because their lack of ethics creates risk for that particular company, and it creates reputational risk for you.

downandout 10y ago
First, I don't think anyone that read my comment would objectively say that I was endorsing such behavior, as you seem to imply in your comment (for the record, I wasn't). Second...you're honestly saying that CreditKarma, Buzzfeed, and Vice didn't grow through spamming? CreditKarma (and everyone else in the free credit space) contracts with affiliate networks to drive new customers, whose affiliates do every shady thing imaginable (and then some) to get commissions. "Free credit" offers thrive in these networks - they occupy the top spots in the best performing offers lists because they pay $20+ to affiliates for each "free" signup - and they are primarily promoted through fake job offers on Craigslist and other job boards. Affiliates tell people they're hired for XYZ job - they just need to complete a credit check by going to <insert affiliate link here>. CreditKarma probably isn't directly doing this, but they know full well that their affiliates are. Buzzfeed spams the crap out of Facebook. Eventbrite & Vice had some spamming issues in the beginning as well. I'm not sure about Snapchat's growth story - they may have been a rare example of natural growth, along with Google. Most of the rest of those you're talking about aren't really the kinds of pure internet plays that are relevant to this discussion. No amount of spamming would have made Xiaomi, Palantir, SpaceX, DJI, etc any more successful, so they didn't employ these techniques.
- millamox 10y ago
  You made an "edgy" but incorrect generalization based on sparse anecdata. It was good for your comment karma, but it's silly to stand by it. AirBNB's CAN-SPAM violating email was clearly unethical. A media company showing up on Facebook more than you would prefer is, at worst, mildly annoying. There's an important difference. Ethical people do not need to leave Silicon Valley. Dishonesty is not prerequisite to success. Your claims are wrong.
  - downandout 10y ago
    >Ethical people do not need to leave Silicon Valley. Dishonesty is not prerequisite to success. Your claims are wrong. Again, you're implying things that I simply didn't say. >A media company showing up on Facebook more than you would prefer is, at worst, mildly annoying You're right, that's not spam, but that's not what I was referring to either. I'm not going to write a massive explanation here of the specific Facebook spamming techniques employed by Buzzfeed et al, but suffice it to say that they are actively and aggressively spamming to "prime the viral pump" with certain stories.
    - millamox 10y ago
      This is boring. Conversation is a waste of time if one of the participants (you) just lies and tries to rewrite history anytime they were wrong about something. Ethics work is SV. Many of the most successful founders are highly ethical. Aggressive growth doesn't require a lack of morality. Downandout could not be more wrong. But he also lies to "win" pointless internet conversations, so it's hardly a shock that he thinks we all must lie professionally as well.
- Kinnard 10y ago
  It was clear to me that you weren't making an endorsement.
somedangedname 10y ago
Not Shady unicorns:...Palantir... This is a stretch.
- p4wnc6 10y ago
  In the same sense that a C-section is a "stretch".
- millamox 10y ago
  I paused at that one because I don't like the state's intelligence arm, or it's sub-contractors. However, I decided it was ethical for the context of this conversation, because to my knowledge they don't lie to grow revenue. They claim they'll charge a huge pile of money to analyze data, and that's precisely what they do.
  - joshdickson 10y ago
    Until the past couple of years they were almost entirely dependent on government contracts from shady three-letter agencies, and most of the work required a security clearance (now it's a little closer to 50/50 government contracts and Fortune 100-type companies). Not to mention they were literally funded with millions of dollars from the CIA's venture capital arm. Suppose they had been shady - I'm not sure we'd know about it. You probably should have had an 'inconclusive' group somewhere in the middle and they would have at least fit there.
ivraatiems 10y ago
Sorry, but, many of these companies are not as ethical as you claim. Xiaomi sent user data to China without consent. [1] Palantir proposed an illegal campaign agaisnt Wikileaks [2] and its very industry is by its nature fairly dubious and shady, though that doesn't mean it's doing things that are strictly illegal aside from what is known. Snapchat ignored and didn't fix various privacy and security issues. [3] Pintrest operates in a dubious copyright gray area. [4] Spotify pays artists very little and most money gets sent to record labels. Even labels see almost nothing. [5] Like Uber, Lyft engages in unethical treatment of its workers. [6] I can go on. The badness of these things varies significantly. Not all of them indicate a company is totally unethical. But I think the assertion "most Silicon Valley companies are doing at least some illegal, scammy, or otherwise unethical things in order to get ahead" is completely true. [1] http://www.zdnet.com/article/xiaomi-under-investigation-for-sending-user-info-back-to-china/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/xiaomi-under-investigation-for-... [2] http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/02/11/palantir-apologizes-for-wikileaks-attack-proposal-cuts-ties-with-hbgary/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/02/11/palanti... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/style/uber-facebook-and-others-bedeviled-by-moral-issues.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/style/uber-facebook-and-ot... [4] http://www.businessinsider.com/pinterest-illegal-faq-2012-2?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/pinterest-illegal-faq-2012-2?... [5] http://www.hearya.com/2012/11/28/david-macias-enlightening-letter-on-spotify/ http://www.hearya.com/2012/11/28/david-macias-enlightening-l... [6] https://www.reddit.com/r/Lyft/comments/2y16r3/lyfts_highly_unethical_business_practices_making/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Lyft/comments/2y16r3/lyfts_highly_u... (aggregates news articles)
- serge2k 10y ago
  > Spotify pays artists very little and most money gets sent to record labels. Even labels see almost nothing. [5] How is that shady? They have deals with the appropriate companies.
  - kixpanganiban 10y ago
    Exactly. That's not shady, that's just how their business works and labels are not blind from that fact.
joering2 10y ago
> Not Shady unicorns: [...] Palantir Good God!!!
stephancoral 10y ago
Vice is incredibly shady and unethical in my opinion. They champion local DIY scenes and lament the loss of music venues yet their new offices are directly responsible for the closure of 3 venues in NYC (they were all part of the industrial zone in Williamsburg where Vice chose as HQ). They don't publish stories that conflict with their branding partners corporate narrative. I know people who have been fired because they wrote poorly of their brand partners. Almost every company is mendacious and shady.
stevenwiles 10y ago
Your list of "not shady unicorns" betrays a certain naiveté on this topic...

downandout 10y ago

First, I don't think anyone that read my comment would objectively say that I was endorsing such behavior, as you seem to imply in your comment (for the record, I wasn't). Second...you're honestly saying that CreditKarma, Buzzfeed, and Vice didn't grow through spamming? CreditKarma (and everyone else in the free credit space) contracts with affiliate networks to drive new customers, whose affiliates do every shady thing imaginable (and then some) to get commissions. "Free credit" offers thrive in these networks - they occupy the top spots in the best performing offers lists because they pay $20+ to affiliates for each "free" signup - and they are primarily promoted through fake job offers on Craigslist and other job boards. Affiliates tell people they're hired for XYZ job - they just need to complete a credit check by going to <insert affiliate link here>. CreditKarma probably isn't directly doing this, but they know full well that their affiliates are. Buzzfeed spams the crap out of Facebook. Eventbrite & Vice had some spamming issues in the beginning as well. I'm not sure about Snapchat's growth story - they may have been a rare example of natural growth, along with Google. Most of the rest of those you're talking about aren't really the kinds of pure internet plays that are relevant to this discussion. No amount of spamming would have made Xiaomi, Palantir, SpaceX, DJI, etc any more successful, so they didn't employ these techniques.

millamox 10y ago
You made an "edgy" but incorrect generalization based on sparse anecdata. It was good for your comment karma, but it's silly to stand by it. AirBNB's CAN-SPAM violating email was clearly unethical. A media company showing up on Facebook more than you would prefer is, at worst, mildly annoying. There's an important difference. Ethical people do not need to leave Silicon Valley. Dishonesty is not prerequisite to success. Your claims are wrong.
- downandout 10y ago
  >Ethical people do not need to leave Silicon Valley. Dishonesty is not prerequisite to success. Your claims are wrong. Again, you're implying things that I simply didn't say. >A media company showing up on Facebook more than you would prefer is, at worst, mildly annoying You're right, that's not spam, but that's not what I was referring to either. I'm not going to write a massive explanation here of the specific Facebook spamming techniques employed by Buzzfeed et al, but suffice it to say that they are actively and aggressively spamming to "prime the viral pump" with certain stories.
  - millamox 10y ago
    This is boring. Conversation is a waste of time if one of the participants (you) just lies and tries to rewrite history anytime they were wrong about something. Ethics work is SV. Many of the most successful founders are highly ethical. Aggressive growth doesn't require a lack of morality. Downandout could not be more wrong. But he also lies to "win" pointless internet conversations, so it's hardly a shock that he thinks we all must lie professionally as well.
Kinnard 10y ago
It was clear to me that you weren't making an endorsement.

somedangedname 10y ago

Not Shady unicorns:...Palantir... This is a stretch.

p4wnc6 10y ago
In the same sense that a C-section is a "stretch".
millamox 10y ago
I paused at that one because I don't like the state's intelligence arm, or it's sub-contractors. However, I decided it was ethical for the context of this conversation, because to my knowledge they don't lie to grow revenue. They claim they'll charge a huge pile of money to analyze data, and that's precisely what they do.
- joshdickson 10y ago
  Until the past couple of years they were almost entirely dependent on government contracts from shady three-letter agencies, and most of the work required a security clearance (now it's a little closer to 50/50 government contracts and Fortune 100-type companies). Not to mention they were literally funded with millions of dollars from the CIA's venture capital arm. Suppose they had been shady - I'm not sure we'd know about it. You probably should have had an 'inconclusive' group somewhere in the middle and they would have at least fit there.

ivraatiems 10y ago

Sorry, but, many of these companies are not as ethical as you claim. Xiaomi sent user data to China without consent. [1] Palantir proposed an illegal campaign agaisnt Wikileaks [2] and its very industry is by its nature fairly dubious and shady, though that doesn't mean it's doing things that are strictly illegal aside from what is known. Snapchat ignored and didn't fix various privacy and security issues. [3] Pintrest operates in a dubious copyright gray area. [4] Spotify pays artists very little and most money gets sent to record labels. Even labels see almost nothing. [5] Like Uber, Lyft engages in unethical treatment of its workers. [6] I can go on. The badness of these things varies significantly. Not all of them indicate a company is totally unethical. But I think the assertion "most Silicon Valley companies are doing at least some illegal, scammy, or otherwise unethical things in order to get ahead" is completely true. [1] http://www.zdnet.com/article/xiaomi-under-investigation-for-sending-user-info-back-to-china/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/xiaomi-under-investigation-for-... [2] http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/02/11/palantir-apologizes-for-wikileaks-attack-proposal-cuts-ties-with-hbgary/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/02/11/palanti... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/style/uber-facebook-and-others-bedeviled-by-moral-issues.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/style/uber-facebook-and-ot... [4] http://www.businessinsider.com/pinterest-illegal-faq-2012-2?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/pinterest-illegal-faq-2012-2?... [5] http://www.hearya.com/2012/11/28/david-macias-enlightening-letter-on-spotify/ http://www.hearya.com/2012/11/28/david-macias-enlightening-l... [6] https://www.reddit.com/r/Lyft/comments/2y16r3/lyfts_highly_unethical_business_practices_making/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Lyft/comments/2y16r3/lyfts_highly_u... (aggregates news articles)

serge2k 10y ago
> Spotify pays artists very little and most money gets sent to record labels. Even labels see almost nothing. [5] How is that shady? They have deals with the appropriate companies.
- kixpanganiban 10y ago
  Exactly. That's not shady, that's just how their business works and labels are not blind from that fact.

joering2 10y ago

> Not Shady unicorns: [...] Palantir Good God!!!

stephancoral 10y ago

Vice is incredibly shady and unethical in my opinion. They champion local DIY scenes and lament the loss of music venues yet their new offices are directly responsible for the closure of 3 venues in NYC (they were all part of the industrial zone in Williamsburg where Vice chose as HQ). They don't publish stories that conflict with their branding partners corporate narrative. I know people who have been fired because they wrote poorly of their brand partners. Almost every company is mendacious and shady.

stevenwiles 10y ago

Your list of "not shady unicorns" betrays a certain naiveté on this topic...