6 ms·

We are in a different position now than we were a year ago. We are happy to offer paid internships. That being said, if we (and other startups) don't want to h

by aberman 17y ago

We are in a different position now than we were a year ago. We are happy to offer paid internships. That being said, if we (and other startups) don't want to hire you because you are inexperienced, offering to work unpaid may make it easier to get some experience. If, for some crazy reason, you really want to work for a startup, you should do what it takes to break into that community. That's what I did in college, and for a year after college. No way I would have been able to found WePay without those experiences.

qeorge 17y ago
I'm not trying to give you guys a hard time. I'm glad you're doing well, and are paying your interns now. However, you're still advising people to break the law on your blog. Its a weird, perhaps antiquated, and largely unknown law - but it was pointed out to you on HN last week and you're clearly aware of it. Thus, IMHO, its irresponsible of you to continue to encourage unpaid internships on your blog.
- aaronblohowiak 17y ago
  I do my best to be a good citizen and am a big proponent of workers' rights. Law is not sacred. Especially unenforced law that inadequately accounts for the realities of modernity. Personal responsibility does not oblige the individual to refrain from partaking in a socially-lauded tradition.
  - qeorge 17y ago
    Alright, well can we at least agree that you should disclose when you knowingly give advice that violates US law? Surely you can see how this could cause problems for someone else who has the bad fortune of taking your advice at face value.
    - shadowsun7 17y ago
      So say that I'm a student. I take his advice at face value, I find a startup worth looking at, I hop in to help out for no pay. Maybe I do it in my free time, mid-semester; maybe I do it during the summer break. Whatever. I'm enlightened enough to know that I'm working for the education. The business doesn't advertise for it; it's a personal decision that I make to work for them. Cut to John Doe. John is the son of Mr Doe, who owns a law firm. He spends time off working at his dad's law firm, because he intends to become a lawyer. John is not paid. If I am told to cease and decease by a lawyer/my school/a policeman - no deal, I'll just stop and say: gee, I was in it because I wanted to learn stuff. Out of my own free will. I can't? No problem - I'll just stop. Ditto for John (though for some reason, I doubt anybody'd actually punish John, or even Mr Doe). I don't see how I'd get in trouble. His article is directed at the non-technical student, not the employer. (If it was written for an employer/startup founder, then perhaps you're right to suggest that he should disclose that he's giving law-breaking advice. I'd be fully behind you on that one, qeorge, I would.) But the article's fine as it is. And there's a corollary, of course. Entrepreneurs are relentlessly resourceful. If you're not relentlessly resourceful in figuring out a way to get into a startup for the experience, then you're probably not going to make it anyway.
      - tsally 17y ago
        This is all irrelevant to qeorge's point. Wepay is a company (dealing with financial transactions, of all things). The company has a blog post. This blog post advocates something that illegal. The spirit of the law does not change the above facts. It's an article that belongs on the founder's personal blog, not the company's blog.
        kristiandupont 17y ago
        I agree - except the last line rubs me the wrong way somehow. I think that it implies that there is a political separation between a founder and the company. Blogging has helped remove this separation and shown us that all companies really consist of humans.
  - pvg 17y ago
    What? This is strictly enforced law, when they catch you. 'Personal responsibility' is precisely about obeying the rule of law, rather than inventing scenarios to avoid it when you wish it didn't apply to you.
- SRSimko 17y ago
  I agree with your point the law is the law but in my mind this refers to someone getting college credit for working at X company. If someone chooses to work in their spare time at X company for experience and nothing else I doubt the law applies.
  - KWD 17y ago
    " If someone chooses to work in their spare time at X company for experience and nothing else I doubt the law applies." Not the way law works. That someone accepted a position without pay does not preclude you from following the law. In the worst case scenario, the person leaves unhappily and they have a means to make your life miserable.
shadowsun7 17y ago
I'm a student, and to be honest I don't mind if I don't get paid. In my mind, at least - it's a fair trade: I get to work for experience, and I get to see - up close - what a startup's really like. That sure beats working as a bellboy or a cashier or a tutor somewhere, where you get money but not a whole lot of useful experience. I suspect that the article above isn't an argument for employers to hire unpaid interns. It's rather an argument for non-technical entrepreneur-to-bes to approach the internship job with an attitude of 'you don't want to hire me? That's fine. I'll stick around and help you out until you do. And if you don't - that's still fine. I'll just learn all I can and then disappear after I'm no longer needed.' Still a fair trade, IMO.
- qeorge 17y ago
  That's not the point. We have labor laws in the US because "some people will take the deal." To understand more clearly, it may be helpful to consider illegal immigration to the United States. The basic problem is that even though US minimum wage is $7.25/hour some people are willing to work for $2/hour. The problem here is clear, even though the workers making $2/hour feel "its a fair trade." Though less inflammatory, your unpaid internship example is the same. You are flooding the market with artificially cheap labor, making it impossible for others who can't work for free to compete. Worse, as a business owner, how am I to compete with someone getting free labor while I'm paying my employees like a sucker? At the end of the day, this "time honored" tradition of unpaid internships is little more than an end-run around minimum wage.
  - aberman 17y ago
    You are flooding the market with artificially cheap labor, making it impossible for others who can't work for free to compete. You are assuming that unpaid interns would otherwise take the jobs of paid employees. In this regard, you are categorically wrong. Read my post: we don't want to hire anybody. From the post: It's a position "that doesn't exist." Offering to work unpaid is a hack that get's you in the door.
    - qeorge 17y ago

by aberman 17y ago

qeorge 17y ago

I'm not trying to give you guys a hard time. I'm glad you're doing well, and are paying your interns now. However, you're still advising people to break the law on your blog. Its a weird, perhaps antiquated, and largely unknown law - but it was pointed out to you on HN last week and you're clearly aware of it. Thus, IMHO, its irresponsible of you to continue to encourage unpaid internships on your blog.

aaronblohowiak 17y ago
I do my best to be a good citizen and am a big proponent of workers' rights. Law is not sacred. Especially unenforced law that inadequately accounts for the realities of modernity. Personal responsibility does not oblige the individual to refrain from partaking in a socially-lauded tradition.
- qeorge 17y ago
  Alright, well can we at least agree that you should disclose when you knowingly give advice that violates US law? Surely you can see how this could cause problems for someone else who has the bad fortune of taking your advice at face value.
  - shadowsun7 17y ago
    So say that I'm a student. I take his advice at face value, I find a startup worth looking at, I hop in to help out for no pay. Maybe I do it in my free time, mid-semester; maybe I do it during the summer break. Whatever. I'm enlightened enough to know that I'm working for the education. The business doesn't advertise for it; it's a personal decision that I make to work for them. Cut to John Doe. John is the son of Mr Doe, who owns a law firm. He spends time off working at his dad's law firm, because he intends to become a lawyer. John is not paid. If I am told to cease and decease by a lawyer/my school/a policeman - no deal, I'll just stop and say: gee, I was in it because I wanted to learn stuff. Out of my own free will. I can't? No problem - I'll just stop. Ditto for John (though for some reason, I doubt anybody'd actually punish John, or even Mr Doe). I don't see how I'd get in trouble. His article is directed at the non-technical student, not the employer. (If it was written for an employer/startup founder, then perhaps you're right to suggest that he should disclose that he's giving law-breaking advice. I'd be fully behind you on that one, qeorge, I would.) But the article's fine as it is. And there's a corollary, of course. Entrepreneurs are relentlessly resourceful. If you're not relentlessly resourceful in figuring out a way to get into a startup for the experience, then you're probably not going to make it anyway.
    - tsally 17y ago
      This is all irrelevant to qeorge's point. Wepay is a company (dealing with financial transactions, of all things). The company has a blog post. This blog post advocates something that illegal. The spirit of the law does not change the above facts. It's an article that belongs on the founder's personal blog, not the company's blog.
      - kristiandupont 17y ago
        I agree - except the last line rubs me the wrong way somehow. I think that it implies that there is a political separation between a founder and the company. Blogging has helped remove this separation and shown us that all companies really consist of humans.
- pvg 17y ago
  What? This is strictly enforced law, when they catch you. 'Personal responsibility' is precisely about obeying the rule of law, rather than inventing scenarios to avoid it when you wish it didn't apply to you.
SRSimko 17y ago
I agree with your point the law is the law but in my mind this refers to someone getting college credit for working at X company. If someone chooses to work in their spare time at X company for experience and nothing else I doubt the law applies.
- KWD 17y ago
  " If someone chooses to work in their spare time at X company for experience and nothing else I doubt the law applies." Not the way law works. That someone accepted a position without pay does not preclude you from following the law. In the worst case scenario, the person leaves unhappily and they have a means to make your life miserable.

shadowsun7 17y ago

I'm a student, and to be honest I don't mind if I don't get paid. In my mind, at least - it's a fair trade: I get to work for experience, and I get to see - up close - what a startup's really like. That sure beats working as a bellboy or a cashier or a tutor somewhere, where you get money but not a whole lot of useful experience. I suspect that the article above isn't an argument for employers to hire unpaid interns. It's rather an argument for non-technical entrepreneur-to-bes to approach the internship job with an attitude of 'you don't want to hire me? That's fine. I'll stick around and help you out until you do. And if you don't - that's still fine. I'll just learn all I can and then disappear after I'm no longer needed.' Still a fair trade, IMO.

qeorge 17y ago
That's not the point. We have labor laws in the US because "some people will take the deal." To understand more clearly, it may be helpful to consider illegal immigration to the United States. The basic problem is that even though US minimum wage is $7.25/hour some people are willing to work for $2/hour. The problem here is clear, even though the workers making $2/hour feel "its a fair trade." Though less inflammatory, your unpaid internship example is the same. You are flooding the market with artificially cheap labor, making it impossible for others who can't work for free to compete. Worse, as a business owner, how am I to compete with someone getting free labor while I'm paying my employees like a sucker? At the end of the day, this "time honored" tradition of unpaid internships is little more than an end-run around minimum wage.
- aberman 17y ago
  You are flooding the market with artificially cheap labor, making it impossible for others who can't work for free to compete. You are assuming that unpaid interns would otherwise take the jobs of paid employees. In this regard, you are categorically wrong. Read my post: we don't want to hire anybody. From the post: It's a position "that doesn't exist." Offering to work unpaid is a hack that get's you in the door.
  - qeorge 17y ago