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As pointed out in the comments on your last article: Unpaid internships are illegal.

by qeorge 17y ago

aaronblohowiak 17y ago
Nope: http://www.onedayoneinternship.com/blog/are-unpaid-internships-illegal/ http://www.onedayoneinternship.com/blog/are-unpaid-internshi...
- qeorge 17y ago
  You should read the article you linked. Its actually a very good discussion of the subject. Technically, you are correct - there is a such thing as a legal unpaid internship, according to some interpretations of the law. This would be when the student gets more out of it than the business. However, most unpaid internships, such as the one WePay discussed in its last post, are clearly illegal.
  - aaronblohowiak 17y ago
    At best, this is a "gray area". It sounds like you and I had different conclusions from the same source. What I took away from it is that the statute on the books has this hard-to-interpret notion of benefit to the employer, that is often interpreted to mean more benefit than cost. More importantly, what I got from the article was an explanation and examples of the lack of enforcement against those offering unpaid internships -- regardless of the legislation. Only from the enforcement of the law can we really know what the law is. So, A) you were technically wrong and B) you are still wrong in practice. As a decision maker, I need information about threats and opportunities. As a tinkerer, I like knowing minutiae. My response both indicated the functional value of unpaid internships as not a legal threat and provided a link to a reasonable discussion of the technicalities. Your statement "You should read the article you linked" doesn't add to the conversation, except as an attack at me. Even if you did not intend it as such, in this circumstance you are suggesting that I did not do my homework (when in fact I was helping observers of our interchange by providing sources.) While I thank you for leading me down the path of exploring this legal oddity, I'd rather you left out aspersions.
aberman 17y ago
We are in a different position now than we were a year ago. We are happy to offer paid internships. That being said, if we (and other startups) don't want to hire you because you are inexperienced, offering to work unpaid may make it easier to get some experience. If, for some crazy reason, you really want to work for a startup, you should do what it takes to break into that community. That's what I did in college, and for a year after college. No way I would have been able to found WePay without those experiences.
- qeorge 17y ago
  I'm not trying to give you guys a hard time. I'm glad you're doing well, and are paying your interns now. However, you're still advising people to break the law on your blog. Its a weird, perhaps antiquated, and largely unknown law - but it was pointed out to you on HN last week and you're clearly aware of it. Thus, IMHO, its irresponsible of you to continue to encourage unpaid internships on your blog.
  - aaronblohowiak 17y ago
    I do my best to be a good citizen and am a big proponent of workers' rights. Law is not sacred. Especially unenforced law that inadequately accounts for the realities of modernity. Personal responsibility does not oblige the individual to refrain from partaking in a socially-lauded tradition.
    - qeorge 17y ago
      Alright, well can we at least agree that you should disclose when you knowingly give advice that violates US law? Surely you can see how this could cause problems for someone else who has the bad fortune of taking your advice at face value.
      - shadowsun7 17y ago
        So say that I'm a student. I take his advice at face value, I find a startup worth looking at, I hop in to help out for no pay. Maybe I do it in my free time, mid-semester; maybe I do it during the summer break. Whatever. I'm enlightened enough to know that I'm working for the education. The business doesn't advertise for it; it's a personal decision that I make to work for them. Cut to John Doe. John is the son of Mr Doe, who owns a law firm. He spends time off working at his dad's law firm, because he intends to become a lawyer. John is not paid. If I am told to cease and decease by a lawyer/my school/a policeman - no deal, I'll just stop and say: gee, I was in it because I wanted to learn stuff. Out of my own free will. I can't? No problem - I'll just stop. Ditto for John (though for some reason, I doubt anybody'd actually punish John, or even Mr Doe). I don't see how I'd get in trouble. His article is directed at the non-technical student, not the employer. (If it was written for an employer/startup founder, then perhaps you're right to suggest that he should disclose that he's giving law-breaking advice. I'd be fully behind you on that one, qeorge, I would.) But the article's fine as it is. And there's a corollary, of course. Entrepreneurs are relentlessly resourceful. If you're not relentlessly resourceful in figuring out a way to get into a startup for the experience, then you're probably not going to make it anyway.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

As pointed out in the comments on your last article: Unpaid internships are illegal.

by qeorge 17y ago

As pointed out in the comments on your last article: Unpaid internships are illegal.

Nope: http://www.onedayoneinternship.com/blog/are-unpaid-internships-illegal/ http://www.onedayoneinternship.com/blog/are-unpaid-internshi...

qeorge 17y ago
You should read the article you linked. Its actually a very good discussion of the subject. Technically, you are correct - there is a such thing as a legal unpaid internship, according to some interpretations of the law. This would be when the student gets more out of it than the business. However, most unpaid internships, such as the one WePay discussed in its last post, are clearly illegal.
- aaronblohowiak 17y ago
  At best, this is a "gray area". It sounds like you and I had different conclusions from the same source. What I took away from it is that the statute on the books has this hard-to-interpret notion of benefit to the employer, that is often interpreted to mean more benefit than cost. More importantly, what I got from the article was an explanation and examples of the lack of enforcement against those offering unpaid internships -- regardless of the legislation. Only from the enforcement of the law can we really know what the law is. So, A) you were technically wrong and B) you are still wrong in practice. As a decision maker, I need information about threats and opportunities. As a tinkerer, I like knowing minutiae. My response both indicated the functional value of unpaid internships as not a legal threat and provided a link to a reasonable discussion of the technicalities. Your statement "You should read the article you linked" doesn't add to the conversation, except as an attack at me. Even if you did not intend it as such, in this circumstance you are suggesting that I did not do my homework (when in fact I was helping observers of our interchange by providing sources.) While I thank you for leading me down the path of exploring this legal oddity, I'd rather you left out aspersions.

aberman 17y ago

We are in a different position now than we were a year ago. We are happy to offer paid internships. That being said, if we (and other startups) don't want to hire you because you are inexperienced, offering to work unpaid may make it easier to get some experience. If, for some crazy reason, you really want to work for a startup, you should do what it takes to break into that community. That's what I did in college, and for a year after college. No way I would have been able to found WePay without those experiences.

qeorge 17y ago
I'm not trying to give you guys a hard time. I'm glad you're doing well, and are paying your interns now. However, you're still advising people to break the law on your blog. Its a weird, perhaps antiquated, and largely unknown law - but it was pointed out to you on HN last week and you're clearly aware of it. Thus, IMHO, its irresponsible of you to continue to encourage unpaid internships on your blog.
- aaronblohowiak 17y ago
  I do my best to be a good citizen and am a big proponent of workers' rights. Law is not sacred. Especially unenforced law that inadequately accounts for the realities of modernity. Personal responsibility does not oblige the individual to refrain from partaking in a socially-lauded tradition.
  - qeorge 17y ago
    Alright, well can we at least agree that you should disclose when you knowingly give advice that violates US law? Surely you can see how this could cause problems for someone else who has the bad fortune of taking your advice at face value.
    - shadowsun7 17y ago
      So say that I'm a student. I take his advice at face value, I find a startup worth looking at, I hop in to help out for no pay. Maybe I do it in my free time, mid-semester; maybe I do it during the summer break. Whatever. I'm enlightened enough to know that I'm working for the education. The business doesn't advertise for it; it's a personal decision that I make to work for them. Cut to John Doe. John is the son of Mr Doe, who owns a law firm. He spends time off working at his dad's law firm, because he intends to become a lawyer. John is not paid. If I am told to cease and decease by a lawyer/my school/a policeman - no deal, I'll just stop and say: gee, I was in it because I wanted to learn stuff. Out of my own free will. I can't? No problem - I'll just stop. Ditto for John (though for some reason, I doubt anybody'd actually punish John, or even Mr Doe). I don't see how I'd get in trouble. His article is directed at the non-technical student, not the employer. (If it was written for an employer/startup founder, then perhaps you're right to suggest that he should disclose that he's giving law-breaking advice. I'd be fully behind you on that one, qeorge, I would.) But the article's fine as it is. And there's a corollary, of course. Entrepreneurs are relentlessly resourceful. If you're not relentlessly resourceful in figuring out a way to get into a startup for the experience, then you're probably not going to make it anyway.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]