6 ms·

So you’re inexperienced, non-technical, and you want to work for a startup

68 points by aberman 17y ago

qeorge 17y ago
As pointed out in the comments on your last article: Unpaid internships are illegal.
- aaronblohowiak 17y ago
  Nope: http://www.onedayoneinternship.com/blog/are-unpaid-internships-illegal/ http://www.onedayoneinternship.com/blog/are-unpaid-internshi...
  - qeorge 17y ago
    You should read the article you linked. Its actually a very good discussion of the subject. Technically, you are correct - there is a such thing as a legal unpaid internship, according to some interpretations of the law. This would be when the student gets more out of it than the business. However, most unpaid internships, such as the one WePay discussed in its last post, are clearly illegal.
    - aaronblohowiak 17y ago
      At best, this is a "gray area". It sounds like you and I had different conclusions from the same source. What I took away from it is that the statute on the books has this hard-to-interpret notion of benefit to the employer, that is often interpreted to mean more benefit than cost. More importantly, what I got from the article was an explanation and examples of the lack of enforcement against those offering unpaid internships -- regardless of the legislation. Only from the enforcement of the law can we really know what the law is. So, A) you were technically wrong and B) you are still wrong in practice. As a decision maker, I need information about threats and opportunities. As a tinkerer, I like knowing minutiae. My response both indicated the functional value of unpaid internships as not a legal threat and provided a link to a reasonable discussion of the technicalities. Your statement "You should read the article you linked" doesn't add to the conversation, except as an attack at me. Even if you did not intend it as such, in this circumstance you are suggesting that I did not do my homework (when in fact I was helping observers of our interchange by providing sources.) While I thank you for leading me down the path of exploring this legal oddity, I'd rather you left out aspersions.
- aberman 17y ago
  We are in a different position now than we were a year ago. We are happy to offer paid internships. That being said, if we (and other startups) don't want to hire you because you are inexperienced, offering to work unpaid may make it easier to get some experience. If, for some crazy reason, you really want to work for a startup, you should do what it takes to break into that community. That's what I did in college, and for a year after college. No way I would have been able to found WePay without those experiences.
  - qeorge 17y ago
    I'm not trying to give you guys a hard time. I'm glad you're doing well, and are paying your interns now. However, you're still advising people to break the law on your blog. Its a weird, perhaps antiquated, and largely unknown law - but it was pointed out to you on HN last week and you're clearly aware of it. Thus, IMHO, its irresponsible of you to continue to encourage unpaid internships on your blog.
    - aaronblohowiak 17y ago
      I do my best to be a good citizen and am a big proponent of workers' rights. Law is not sacred. Especially unenforced law that inadequately accounts for the realities of modernity. Personal responsibility does not oblige the individual to refrain from partaking in a socially-lauded tradition.
      - qeorge 17y ago
        Alright, well can we at least agree that you should disclose when you knowingly give advice that violates US law? Surely you can see how this could cause problems for someone else who has the bad fortune of taking your advice at face value.
        shadowsun7 17y ago
        So say that I'm a student. I take his advice at face value, I find a startup worth looking at, I hop in to help out for no pay. Maybe I do it in my free time, mid-semester; maybe I do it during the summer break. Whatever. I'm enlightened enough to know that I'm working for the education. The business doesn't advertise for it; it's a personal decision that I make to work for them. Cut to John Doe. John is the son of Mr Doe, who owns a law firm. He spends time off working at his dad's law firm, because he intends to become a lawyer. John is not paid. If I am told to cease and decease by a lawyer/my school/a policeman - no deal, I'll just stop and say: gee, I was in it because I wanted to learn stuff. Out of my own free will. I can't? No problem - I'll just stop. Ditto for John (though for some reason, I doubt anybody'd actually punish John, or even Mr Doe). I don't see how I'd get in trouble. His article is directed at the non-technical student, not the employer. (If it was written for an employer/startup founder, then perhaps you're right to suggest that he should disclose that he's giving law-breaking advice. I'd be fully behind you on that one, qeorge, I would.) But the article's fine as it is. And there's a corollary, of course. Entrepreneurs are relentlessly resourceful. If you're not relentlessly resourceful in figuring out a way to get into a startup for the experience, then you're probably not going to make it anyway.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
stevederico 17y ago
I love this mentality. Helped me get my job I have today. "Everybody can think of something they are good at; all you have to do is figure out how that relates to some aspect of what we do on a daily basis. " Don't ask, do.
- iamwil 17y ago
  Better yet, do. I have no patience for those that just floss big.
- aberman 17y ago
  Don't even tell, just show ;)
bullrunbear 17y ago
Killer post - I think this message really needs to reach the abundance of business students today. It's tough as nails to get something non-technical when you're fresh out of college and want to work in a startup. Everyone, often even the founder, is an engineer. You can teach an engineer business, but you can't teach a businessman engineering.
- ABrandt 17y ago
  You can teach an engineer business, but you can't teach a businessman engineering. I know what you're trying to say here, but it sounds slightly condescending to me. First, I firmly believe that picking up "business" isn't as easy as many make it out to be. Second, if a given businessman had chosen to pursue engineering I'm sure--all other considerations being equal--they would do just fine. These are two distinct disciplines that require two distinct ways of thinking. Until you acknowledge this fact I really don't think you can successfully make either a secondary skill set.
  - sigstoat 17y ago
    i knew a lot of folks in engineering school who couldn't hack it and went one building over to business. never met anyone who made the opposite move, for any reason. maybe they all liked the b-school's swanky decor.
    - dpritchett 17y ago
      I switched to and finished a BS in MIS from a business school because I wasn't enjoying my CS major. MIS offered me more project work, team building, and business skills. I followed it up with an MS in CS from the eng school at the same university. Now you know of one person!
  - jordanb 17y ago
    How about this: Business isn't easy. But it's learned through experience. A bright engineer with a few years of business experience is going to run rings around a B-school graduate with no practical experience.
100k 17y ago
I have coffee that needs fetching. Perhaps you can do that. ;)
Omey101 17y ago
I try my best to(and think I do pretty well to some degree) practise this very idea. I am a recent non-technical grad and have been trying my best to add value to a start-up I reached out to. The one thing that I have found to be my best attribute is owning a project I know I can do well. I present an idea, say how I will accomplish it, and execute. The thing I am battling at the moment is spending more time planning than executing. I spoke with a knowledgable friend once and he mentioned, especially in the start-up arena, that once you reach the point where you are 70% confident that an idea is a good one, you should execute right then. The energy and time involved in working on the remaining 30% confidence is simply too expensive for a start-up to afford. I now just need to take this to heart and practise it.
jmtame 17y ago
this post is dead on. i was approached by an undergrad at the university of maryland last weekend, and i was instantly amazed by his initiative. this guy said "i want to help you with your project!" a bit skeptic at first, i gave him git access and we decided to have a phone call the next day where i would describe the code base. that night, before the phone call, i logged into github and saw him committing code. i was blown away that he was diving into the code without having been told what to do. and better yet, he had no prior experience in php. he was a python and ruby kind of guy. my reaction was: wow, this guy is definitely on that list of 2 or 3 people who i think of when i decide to start my next company. by the way, those 2 features were added in 2 days on hndir.com, and the post i wrote about it attracted 2k visitors (and something like 100 new hackers joined the site). this guy was technical, but he didn't know php. if you're non-technical, i'd say be willing to learn and use whatever you need to help (maybe not a language). this is how the technical guys get started. they just figure it out as they go.
- mahmud 17y ago
  You're calling a Python and Ruby programmer "non-technical" because he doesn't know PHP? I didn't know the technical-skills predicate had its result inverted since I last checked it out ;-) Kudos on reaching out to others, though. Can't recommend delegation enough, and I say that as someone who painted himself into a corner by hoarding work.
  - jmtame 17y ago
    i was admiring his initiative as a coder. the takeaway was to have the initiative to tell startups what you can help them with, as opposed to having the attitude of "tell me what i can do." (this person specifically offered to build these two features, and did so without much guidance at all)
  - ryanwaggoner 17y ago
    He specifically says "this guy was technical"
    - 17y ago
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
pvg 17y ago
The much simpler answer seems to be, if you're inexperienced and non-technical, there is simply no room for you in an early stage venture-backed technology startup unless you are someone's best friend, cousin or sibling. Failing that, get experienced or technical enough.
- corruption 17y ago
  Anyone who says you need to be technical in a startup is obviously not practicing much of 4 steps to epiphany. Having someone to make those face to face meetings, do all the phone calls, write up their research and iterate on the business model while you are developing is a huge advantage. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't really gone out there and done the face to face research in my opinion. I noticed on days when I had to do both for various reasons my productivity dropped dramatically because a meeting either face to face or online is a huge context switch c.f. changing to a different programming task.
- bullrunbear 17y ago
  I got two offers at startups as a finance undergrad still in college because I networked my ass off. I found some companies and founders I was interested in, reached out, continued to develop those relationships, and then came into offers from said startups. If you're not someone's best friend, then become it.
arethuza 17y ago
What about: - Documentation - Testing - Support - Competitive analysis All areas that technical people often hate to get involved in.
gyardley 17y ago
Better answer: go to work at a slightly larger startup, one that'll legitimately hire you in a non-technical role for a real (although likely petite) salary. Customer support or account management. Then, work your ass off. Take all the responsibility you can grab. Try to transition yourself into product management, and learn enough about how your product works to get the respect of the developers. Make a couple of job moves to get product positions with more responsibility, and eventually become a product-oriented founder with some of the developers you worked with. I can tell you from personal experience that that route's worked at least once, and you get paid the entire time. Of course, I wasn't planning any of the above - I just dropped out of my grad program and needed to eat - and it took years. In my experience entrepreneurial non-technical undergrads who 'love startups' have no idea whether they love startups or not - instead, they're in love with the idea of founding a company and are rather impatient about it.
morisy 17y ago
"Most importantly, know how to answer the following question: 'What do you want to do if I hire you.'" Great advice, and not just for startups. I think every major internship I had, the hiring manager asked me that. A few times, I had no response and was shuffled around my first few weeks. Eventually, I realized that probably wasn't the best way of going about things. And all that was at companies with thousands of employees: It's a much more vital question to be prepared to answer (even if you're not asked) at smaller shops. Great advice.
maxwin 17y ago
I definitely lost my respect and trust to WePay founders because of their seemingly support for unpaid internships. Their justification is that interns can gain learning experience though they're not paid. This is okay if none of the intern's work goes to production code. If the interns are doing real work that impacts the company's products, then it is not only illegal, but also unethical.
- bullrunbear 17y ago
  Maxwin, Check this out at my alma mater, led by a very respected valley veteran: http://www.cob.sjsu.edu/bennet_s/196%20Spring%2010%20Syllabus.pdf http://www.cob.sjsu.edu/bennet_s/196%20Spring%2010%20Syllabu...

68 points by aberman 17y ago

qeorge 17y ago

As pointed out in the comments on your last article: Unpaid internships are illegal.

aaronblohowiak 17y ago
Nope: http://www.onedayoneinternship.com/blog/are-unpaid-internships-illegal/ http://www.onedayoneinternship.com/blog/are-unpaid-internshi...
- qeorge 17y ago
  You should read the article you linked. Its actually a very good discussion of the subject. Technically, you are correct - there is a such thing as a legal unpaid internship, according to some interpretations of the law. This would be when the student gets more out of it than the business. However, most unpaid internships, such as the one WePay discussed in its last post, are clearly illegal.
  - aaronblohowiak 17y ago
    At best, this is a "gray area". It sounds like you and I had different conclusions from the same source. What I took away from it is that the statute on the books has this hard-to-interpret notion of benefit to the employer, that is often interpreted to mean more benefit than cost. More importantly, what I got from the article was an explanation and examples of the lack of enforcement against those offering unpaid internships -- regardless of the legislation. Only from the enforcement of the law can we really know what the law is. So, A) you were technically wrong and B) you are still wrong in practice. As a decision maker, I need information about threats and opportunities. As a tinkerer, I like knowing minutiae. My response both indicated the functional value of unpaid internships as not a legal threat and provided a link to a reasonable discussion of the technicalities. Your statement "You should read the article you linked" doesn't add to the conversation, except as an attack at me. Even if you did not intend it as such, in this circumstance you are suggesting that I did not do my homework (when in fact I was helping observers of our interchange by providing sources.) While I thank you for leading me down the path of exploring this legal oddity, I'd rather you left out aspersions.
aberman 17y ago
We are in a different position now than we were a year ago. We are happy to offer paid internships. That being said, if we (and other startups) don't want to hire you because you are inexperienced, offering to work unpaid may make it easier to get some experience. If, for some crazy reason, you really want to work for a startup, you should do what it takes to break into that community. That's what I did in college, and for a year after college. No way I would have been able to found WePay without those experiences.
- qeorge 17y ago
  I'm not trying to give you guys a hard time. I'm glad you're doing well, and are paying your interns now. However, you're still advising people to break the law on your blog. Its a weird, perhaps antiquated, and largely unknown law - but it was pointed out to you on HN last week and you're clearly aware of it. Thus, IMHO, its irresponsible of you to continue to encourage unpaid internships on your blog.
  - aaronblohowiak 17y ago
    I do my best to be a good citizen and am a big proponent of workers' rights. Law is not sacred. Especially unenforced law that inadequately accounts for the realities of modernity. Personal responsibility does not oblige the individual to refrain from partaking in a socially-lauded tradition.
    - qeorge 17y ago
      Alright, well can we at least agree that you should disclose when you knowingly give advice that violates US law? Surely you can see how this could cause problems for someone else who has the bad fortune of taking your advice at face value.
      - shadowsun7 17y ago
        So say that I'm a student. I take his advice at face value, I find a startup worth looking at, I hop in to help out for no pay. Maybe I do it in my free time, mid-semester; maybe I do it during the summer break. Whatever. I'm enlightened enough to know that I'm working for the education. The business doesn't advertise for it; it's a personal decision that I make to work for them. Cut to John Doe. John is the son of Mr Doe, who owns a law firm. He spends time off working at his dad's law firm, because he intends to become a lawyer. John is not paid. If I am told to cease and decease by a lawyer/my school/a policeman - no deal, I'll just stop and say: gee, I was in it because I wanted to learn stuff. Out of my own free will. I can't? No problem - I'll just stop. Ditto for John (though for some reason, I doubt anybody'd actually punish John, or even Mr Doe). I don't see how I'd get in trouble. His article is directed at the non-technical student, not the employer. (If it was written for an employer/startup founder, then perhaps you're right to suggest that he should disclose that he's giving law-breaking advice. I'd be fully behind you on that one, qeorge, I would.) But the article's fine as it is. And there's a corollary, of course. Entrepreneurs are relentlessly resourceful. If you're not relentlessly resourceful in figuring out a way to get into a startup for the experience, then you're probably not going to make it anyway.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

stevederico 17y ago

I love this mentality. Helped me get my job I have today. "Everybody can think of something they are good at; all you have to do is figure out how that relates to some aspect of what we do on a daily basis. " Don't ask, do.

iamwil 17y ago
Better yet, do. I have no patience for those that just floss big.
aberman 17y ago
Don't even tell, just show ;)

bullrunbear 17y ago

Killer post - I think this message really needs to reach the abundance of business students today. It's tough as nails to get something non-technical when you're fresh out of college and want to work in a startup. Everyone, often even the founder, is an engineer. You can teach an engineer business, but you can't teach a businessman engineering.

ABrandt 17y ago
You can teach an engineer business, but you can't teach a businessman engineering. I know what you're trying to say here, but it sounds slightly condescending to me. First, I firmly believe that picking up "business" isn't as easy as many make it out to be. Second, if a given businessman had chosen to pursue engineering I'm sure--all other considerations being equal--they would do just fine. These are two distinct disciplines that require two distinct ways of thinking. Until you acknowledge this fact I really don't think you can successfully make either a secondary skill set.
- sigstoat 17y ago
  i knew a lot of folks in engineering school who couldn't hack it and went one building over to business. never met anyone who made the opposite move, for any reason. maybe they all liked the b-school's swanky decor.
  - dpritchett 17y ago
    I switched to and finished a BS in MIS from a business school because I wasn't enjoying my CS major. MIS offered me more project work, team building, and business skills. I followed it up with an MS in CS from the eng school at the same university. Now you know of one person!
- jordanb 17y ago
  How about this: Business isn't easy. But it's learned through experience. A bright engineer with a few years of business experience is going to run rings around a B-school graduate with no practical experience.

100k 17y ago

I have coffee that needs fetching. Perhaps you can do that. ;)

Omey101 17y ago

I try my best to(and think I do pretty well to some degree) practise this very idea. I am a recent non-technical grad and have been trying my best to add value to a start-up I reached out to. The one thing that I have found to be my best attribute is owning a project I know I can do well. I present an idea, say how I will accomplish it, and execute. The thing I am battling at the moment is spending more time planning than executing. I spoke with a knowledgable friend once and he mentioned, especially in the start-up arena, that once you reach the point where you are 70% confident that an idea is a good one, you should execute right then. The energy and time involved in working on the remaining 30% confidence is simply too expensive for a start-up to afford. I now just need to take this to heart and practise it.

jmtame 17y ago

this post is dead on. i was approached by an undergrad at the university of maryland last weekend, and i was instantly amazed by his initiative. this guy said "i want to help you with your project!" a bit skeptic at first, i gave him git access and we decided to have a phone call the next day where i would describe the code base. that night, before the phone call, i logged into github and saw him committing code. i was blown away that he was diving into the code without having been told what to do. and better yet, he had no prior experience in php. he was a python and ruby kind of guy. my reaction was: wow, this guy is definitely on that list of 2 or 3 people who i think of when i decide to start my next company. by the way, those 2 features were added in 2 days on hndir.com, and the post i wrote about it attracted 2k visitors (and something like 100 new hackers joined the site). this guy was technical, but he didn't know php. if you're non-technical, i'd say be willing to learn and use whatever you need to help (maybe not a language). this is how the technical guys get started. they just figure it out as they go.

mahmud 17y ago
You're calling a Python and Ruby programmer "non-technical" because he doesn't know PHP? I didn't know the technical-skills predicate had its result inverted since I last checked it out ;-) Kudos on reaching out to others, though. Can't recommend delegation enough, and I say that as someone who painted himself into a corner by hoarding work.
- jmtame 17y ago
  i was admiring his initiative as a coder. the takeaway was to have the initiative to tell startups what you can help them with, as opposed to having the attitude of "tell me what i can do." (this person specifically offered to build these two features, and did so without much guidance at all)
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  He specifically says "this guy was technical"
  - 17y ago

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

pvg 17y ago

The much simpler answer seems to be, if you're inexperienced and non-technical, there is simply no room for you in an early stage venture-backed technology startup unless you are someone's best friend, cousin or sibling. Failing that, get experienced or technical enough.

corruption 17y ago
Anyone who says you need to be technical in a startup is obviously not practicing much of 4 steps to epiphany. Having someone to make those face to face meetings, do all the phone calls, write up their research and iterate on the business model while you are developing is a huge advantage. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't really gone out there and done the face to face research in my opinion. I noticed on days when I had to do both for various reasons my productivity dropped dramatically because a meeting either face to face or online is a huge context switch c.f. changing to a different programming task.
bullrunbear 17y ago
I got two offers at startups as a finance undergrad still in college because I networked my ass off. I found some companies and founders I was interested in, reached out, continued to develop those relationships, and then came into offers from said startups. If you're not someone's best friend, then become it.

arethuza 17y ago

What about: - Documentation - Testing - Support - Competitive analysis All areas that technical people often hate to get involved in.

gyardley 17y ago

Better answer: go to work at a slightly larger startup, one that'll legitimately hire you in a non-technical role for a real (although likely petite) salary. Customer support or account management. Then, work your ass off. Take all the responsibility you can grab. Try to transition yourself into product management, and learn enough about how your product works to get the respect of the developers. Make a couple of job moves to get product positions with more responsibility, and eventually become a product-oriented founder with some of the developers you worked with. I can tell you from personal experience that that route's worked at least once, and you get paid the entire time. Of course, I wasn't planning any of the above - I just dropped out of my grad program and needed to eat - and it took years. In my experience entrepreneurial non-technical undergrads who 'love startups' have no idea whether they love startups or not - instead, they're in love with the idea of founding a company and are rather impatient about it.

morisy 17y ago

"Most importantly, know how to answer the following question: 'What do you want to do if I hire you.'" Great advice, and not just for startups. I think every major internship I had, the hiring manager asked me that. A few times, I had no response and was shuffled around my first few weeks. Eventually, I realized that probably wasn't the best way of going about things. And all that was at companies with thousands of employees: It's a much more vital question to be prepared to answer (even if you're not asked) at smaller shops. Great advice.

maxwin 17y ago

I definitely lost my respect and trust to WePay founders because of their seemingly support for unpaid internships. Their justification is that interns can gain learning experience though they're not paid. This is okay if none of the intern's work goes to production code. If the interns are doing real work that impacts the company's products, then it is not only illegal, but also unethical.

bullrunbear 17y ago
Maxwin, Check this out at my alma mater, led by a very respected valley veteran: http://www.cob.sjsu.edu/bennet_s/196%20Spring%2010%20Syllabus.pdf http://www.cob.sjsu.edu/bennet_s/196%20Spring%2010%20Syllabu...