12 ms·

Ask HN: I joined a big co, like the team, hate some policies, what should I do?

• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• ktRolster 10y ago
  has done some really sketchy things where they mislead users in the name of growth A company that rips off its users will eventually rip you off. Note though, that if the users are sophisticated enough that they should be able to read and understand a contract, and your company is following their contracts, then they are not ripping anybody off.
• jacquesm 10y ago
  You should have thought twice before joining Facebook.
• ktRolster 10y ago
  I am not sure what I should do. Start interviewing and looking for another job. When you find a better one, quit.
• mlvljr 10y ago
  Blow a whistle!
• staticautomatic 10y ago
  Vote with your feet. If you can get hired there, surely you have other options.
• ljlolel 10y ago
  Quit Uber
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  • fma 10y ago
    The OP's company isn't the leader, so Lyft would be the company to call out.
    • tjfl 10y ago
      Aren't they? > They are in an industry where the leader has a big natural advantage, and they are in that lead by a large margin.
      • engizeer 10y ago
        Could be AWS.
        • nindalf 10y ago
          It sounded like an app targeting end users, possibly a mobile app that sucks up all the data on the device. AWS is unlikely because I don't think anyone could get away with fooling a large segment of the developer population for an extended length of time. Even if they could, why would they? AWS is their golden goose, engaging in shady/unethical practices would mean no more golden eggs.
  • throwaway6497 10y ago
    Thought so too
  • dominotw 10y ago
    AirBnB?
  • jey 10y ago
    Sounds more like LinkedIn.
• RKoutnik 10y ago
  It sounds like these issues are pretty big for you and not so much for your team. If I were in your shoes, I'd be worried that staying would impact my moral compass and I'd start thinking such things were ok. If you've joined pretty recently, no one will look down on you for moving on after discovering that they're misleading customers. I was in a similar situation myself and decided to stick it out, which was a big mistake. I'd be happy to have a chat and see if there's a space for you somewhere in my network. Life's too short to do morally-dubious work. Contact info's in my profile.
• codingdave 10y ago
  No matter what the company size, you will find that the culture and the actions taken by the organization follow the leaders. This is rarely something you can fight... you need to make a personal decision of either accepting the areas in which you disagree, or leaving the job. Personally, I find ethical problems are the kind that would make me leave. Business disagreements and technical differences are one thing... but I can't support something if it directly conflicts with my personal ethics. So if I were in your shoes, I'd frame the question in exactly that way - is this just a disagreement in style for you, or an ethical conflict?
  • monk_e_boy 10y ago
    As OP says, fighting fairly would probably end the company resulting in no job. This tends to be my experience, nice people find it very hard to start and run successful companies. The sort of person who feels guilty for making a good profit is at a disadvantage to the person who feels delight at taking as much money as possible. [edit] I keep getting down votes for stating my experience and opinion. I have no idea how the voting system on HN works. Should I avoid personal anecdotes?
    • gedrap 10y ago
      I don't think it's a binary thing where you are either playing totally fairly or completely unethically. Most of the businesses have to make tough decisions to survive, not all of them are fair (to users, employees, etc). However, the difference is in attitude about such decisions and frequency of them. >> The sort of person who feels guilty for making a good profit is at a disadvantage to the person who feels delight at taking as much money as possible. Making as much money as possible is just a goal that some people set and do everything possible to achieve that. It's no different than any other goal. You don't need to absolutely maximize the monetary output of your life in order to be happy.
      • monk_e_boy 10y ago
        >> ou don't need to absolutely maximize the monetary output of your life in order to be happy. For me personally I totally agree. I have switched careers and taken a big cut in wages to give me more time with my family. I have to assume that a middle of the ground company exists, but again, in my experience I have not worked for one. Some have been cottage industries happy clappy the world is kind and karma is real and others who think the customer is a chump and we can screw them out of as much money as possible.
• HillaryBriss 10y ago
  Is there any value or sense in revealing to the general public some details about the company's dodgy practices?
  • spdustin 10y ago
    Are you asking sincerely, or as a passive aggressive commentary about OP's query? If the former: I think, yes, if whistleblowing can motivate change that would prevent fraud. If the latter, OP didn't disclose anything about a specific company.
    • HillaryBriss 10y ago
      It was a sincere question. How should I have phrased it to avoid ambiguity?
      • jwatte 10y ago
        You can't, because sarcasm is a thing and it's often impossible to detect in writing from people you don't already know.
• chatmasta 10y ago
  Suck it up or quit. You're not going to change what sounds like the central strategy of the company. And if you complain about it, your superiors may very well see you as weak and unwilling to do what it takes to win. So either keep quiet, work hard and get paid, or leave. If you're really that concerned, blow the whistle on your way out. But don't expect to get hired again after doing that.
  • Razengan 10y ago
    Can't OP, and others in his situation, blow the whistle anonymously?
• dang 10y ago
  This submission originally got hit by a spam filter and then was rescued by a user who vouched for it. We rolled back the clock on the post when we saw it, but I suppose it may take a while for the OP to realize that they ended up with an active thread.
• sliverstorm 10y ago
  Every big company will cross your feelings of what is right or ethical every now and again. I would chalk this up to the simple fact that a big company is composed of many different people, with different ethics. Day-to-day, what really matters to your experience is the direct team around you. You're a little enclave inside a larger organization, and may never really interact outside said enclave. But, we also like to take pride in what we do. If you are ashamed to work for the company, that will probably eat at you. You might learn something that changes your perspective that leads to changing your mind, but the company probably won't change.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• saalweachter 10y ago
  If you are on the fence enough to ask here, don't quit immediately and instead just start interviewing elsewhere now. Once you have some solid offers lined up, you can make a more informed decision. In general a large corporation is -- surprise surprise -- going to be made up of a lot of people. Some of them are going to be really passionate about doing the right thing, some of them will be happy to do what it takes to get ahead, and a lot of them are just going to want to do their job, get paid, and not worry too hard about the bigger picture. It can feel bad to be at the big evil and feel like you're being corrupted by being a part of it, but you always have the option to do what you think is right. You can stay there, work hard, and push back against the culture and attitudes you think improper. Maybe you'll make a difference. Maybe you'll give up. Maybe you'll try hard but no one will listen, and meanwhile your hard work will benefit the wrong people. Maybe you'll get fired after people get tired of you telling them how bad they are or after you refuse to do something that crosses the line.
  • st553 10y ago
    >Once you have some solid offers lined up Does this actually work for people? My experience interviewing for software engineering roles is that it's a time consuming and tedious process. I can't imagine juggling a full time job while interviewing with more than one company at a time.
    • saalweachter 10y ago
      My one experience doing it has only involved one job change/interview/offer, so I'm not sure what the typical experience is. After I grew dissatisfied with my first job out of college, partially because I'd just been there five years and wanted to try something else, partially for ethical reasons (the new owners were hosting fundraisers for Jenny McCarthy), I sent resumes to three companies, got a callback from one, did a phone screen, took a day off work for the interview, and then got the offer a few weeks later. Gave three weeks notice, took a month off, was at a new job about three months after I first decided to leave the old.
      • 10y ago
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• gedrap 10y ago
  Well, looks like you are not in a position to change these policies. Therefore, if you regularly feel "a combination of frustration and shame working for them" rather than just a short period of negativeness / sadness that goes away quickly, it's not likely that it will get any better later and quite possibly worse. So quitting seems like the only option, doesn't it? I'd just add that regardless of your decision, try to take a step back and see if you could have spotted these issues earlier, before joining so that you'd be less likely to repeat this mistake in the future. Maybe there were some red flags that you missed or downplayed?
• getpost 10y ago
  What do you mean by "fair?" Business isn't about being fair in the sense of fair play ("chivalry"). Do you mean your employer is engaging in illegal monopolistic practices? Is advertising fraudulent?
  • throwaway173205 10y ago
    I could see it being monopolistic, though it would be debatable. They don't follow the golden rule. They do X to other companies, while actively preventing other companies from doing X to them. If X is okay, then it should be a two way street. If X is not okay, then it should be a zero way street. Either of those positions I could be happy with. In no case of good behavior is X a one way street.
• nilram 10y ago
  You can't steer that boat from the galley. I don't think there's any long-term harm in jumping ship after a brief engagement as long as that doesn't become a pattern on your CV. Depending on the length of time there, especially if it's a job right out of college, you could even just not put it on.
• ActsJuvenile 10y ago
  NO MATTER WHAT you must not say anything and maintain a smiling facade, while letting the hatred smolder inside your dark heart. Make trivial yet self-reinforcing observations around the office that feed your echo-chamber of a mind. After work down a quart of whiskey to soothe broken dreams, while watching HBO shows depicting glamorous life that you will never have. Extra bonus if you lash out at people who love and care for you. In 5 years all this will feel natural to you like the rest of us, and your stock options would have fully vested by then.
  • jsmith0295 10y ago
    Well at least I'm not the only one.
  • mistermann 10y ago
    I would very much like to hear the full version of this story, has it been written up anywhere?
• bdcravens 10y ago
  Be the change you want to see. Do your job in the most ethical manner possible and articulate your thoughts on your job, not necessarily the company, and perhaps it will spread. Counter-culture can be as effective as revolution. If the company doesn't change, you did what you were asked by your company (your job) and what was asked by your ethos.
  • djKianoosh 10y ago
    indeed, this is a path that is less frequently travelled. some people are wired in a way that they like fixing things from the inside. it takes a ton of emotional and psychological strength/aptitude though, so not everyone enjoys this approach. a good book that addresses some of this is Driving Technical Change. some people you will never change, and those you can ignore. if there are enough people that you can influence you have a chance to make a difference. as long as you're strong enough to not let the negativity bring you down, this all can be a rewarding path...
• justapassenger 10y ago
  How sketchy? Every single company I worked at did things that can be considered questionable just to grow. There's no fair fight in industry - good guys lose and get forgotten. But there's of course a limit to that, and once illegal things start to happen - quit. But if that's a "regular shady" stuff everyone does, you may have problems finding company that won't do it (well, you can find companies that are much subtle internally about it, and you won't know what they do).
• quadrature 10y ago
  That frustration and shame are going to affect your productivity sooner or later which in turn affects your future job prospects. Compartmentalization can work for some people, but it sounds like you have a real ethical boundary here. Our industry generally has a great deal of mobility, there are definitely great companies out there which require your skill set and have a great company culture, you don't have to settle for less. Also don't trivialize the psychological impact that this can have on you, especially if you find yourself thinking about this off work hours.
• elgabogringo 10y ago
  If there is something that is actually unethical going on, then you should consider leaving, but you need to be more specific on what those things actually are. "beyond what is fair" and "really sketchy" are pretty subjective. It's fair to say a company's culture is too competitive, but it's not clear this is the case since you feel the company is well run. If you and other coworkers are treated fairly, then you are probably being a bit too sensitive / idealistic. Relax and view it as a challenge: learning how to deal with people that you view as too aggressive/competitive. It will serve you well in life. Again, given the lack of detail that's my best advice... Note that I've worked at a company that stole code and got sued, so I have some experience in unethical companies and leadership.
  • gedrap 10y ago
    >>> Relax and view it as a challenge: learning how to deal with people that you view as too aggressive/competitive. You make a very good point here! Every company has issues and decisions that you don't agree with for variety of reasons. So looking for some perfect company will make your life much harder than it should be. It's just that you have to draw a line what's acceptable and what is not. Having experience in industry (or just general professional experience) can help a lot because it allows you to compare the issues and set the line. I know that because I was wayyy too idealistic and naive at my first full time job :)
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
• skybrian 10y ago
  Are there legal issues for the company? If so it seems like you should be talking to the company's lawyers about what to do. Certainly don't put anything in writing because you might have to testify about it in court one day. If there are possible legal issues for you, then you need to get your own lawyer, because the company's lawyers aren't your lawyers. Putting that aside, if you want to make a change to a management decision then you'll have to be making a presentation to management that's heavy on facts (evidence of risks and bad consequences) rather than about how it makes you feel. Since you're looking to change the status quo, the burden of proof is going to be on you and your allies (if you have any). If that actually succeeds then it's evidence of strong leadership. But in the more likely case, it's time to look elsewhere.
  • dkarapetyan 10y ago
    Don't do this. Company lawyers are there to protect the company. This is the fastest way to get into trouble. If you are going to seek legal advice then make sure it is as far away from the company as possible.
    • skybrian 10y ago
      I think I made that distinction. If you're talking to the company's lawyers it's because it's not personal - you're just trying to help the company.
      • dkarapetyan 10y ago
        Even when you make a distinction to help the company. It only works if the whistleblower is high enough and has the backing of the rest of the leadership. If a regular employee does this the best outcome is they get fired the worst outcome is it turns into a drawn out court battle and the employee loses. It is the same with HR. HR is not there to protect employees. HR is there to protect the company and the easiest way to do that is to get rid of troublemaking employees even if they are making a valid case.
        • 10y ago
• michael_storm 10y ago
  Quit, if you can. Those policies will not change. There's a good reason why that company plays dirty (winning), and the executives are not interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter. Nobody else is, either -- which is why they still work there -- so good luck "banding together". (Unless you're a relatively high-level being with some political cachet, which, given you're new and having asked this question in the first place, you're probably not.) I worked for a similar company right out of college, when I was young(-er) and naive(r). Those 18 months barking up an amoral tree would be handy to have back.
• ChuckMcM 10y ago
  "People are what they eat, companies are the people they hire." -- Anonymous There are a lot of good comments here, enough to get you to an answer I think. Personal integrity comes at a cost, and you describe a situation where your personal integrity is in conflict with the company's policies. It is true you should always be looking for a new job, thinking about what you want to do next what you like in a company what you dislike. One of the reasons for leaving is that the company's ethics and yours are too far out of alignment. Here is the really tricky bit. Companies that are unethical get a reputation for that, the longer you stay at that company the more someone will believe that you're ok with that stance. So three things; 1) Lead by example, speak out about unethical behavior to your peers and make your own choices in line with your values. 2) Look around for a company that is more aligned with your values, that is much easier to do while employed though. 3) Develop some questions you will use when you interview to understand how leadership treats those questions. Things like "Tell me about a time when your management suggested something against the best interests of the customers/users, and the response to it from your organization." Good luck.
  • HillaryBriss 10y ago
    interesting comparison, people::food <--> companies::people in some companies I've worked for it's quite accurate
• fencepost 10y ago
  Bear in mind that at almost(?) every large company out there the mission statement (written or not) is really "Our Mission is to make money for our investors and the executives who were able to negotiate their own contracts and who control how we do business. We make money primarily by (selling products|providing services|entertaining people). Where we can do so without impacting our fiduciary responsibilities, we may attempt to do the 'right' thing - particularly in situations where we can get positive press or customer relations out of it - but that's a preference not a responsibility and may be considered part of our marketing budget." This may seem cynical, but it's basically the way it has to be at any publicly-held company and most privately-held companies that get VC funding. If you tell investors "We're going to put social responsibility/open source ahead of repaying your investment or providing you with profits," good luck finding investors. Entities that put social responsibility, etc. higher are generally called non-profit, not-for-profit, foundation, etc. and I'm not aware of any that could be described as "a big tech company."
  • SeaDude 10y ago
    Bingo!!
  • SeaDude 10y ago
    Bingo!!
• CodeWriter23 10y ago
  It's called "business". The question to you is, how are you going to get into a position to create your own company that is built on your values?
• gaelow 10y ago
  Whitout being more specific I would say that, in general, fighting the policies works even worse than ignoring them. Try to become somebody who can dictate them.
• pasbesoin 10y ago
  Learn. Know there is a next step, elsewhere. Prepare and be pro-active. Nothing like seeing some of what you don't like and don't want to accept, to help you define your own boundaries and what you do want. Good luck!
• djcapelis 10y ago
  Leave. It's that simple. Don't work for a company that isn't ethical. It doesn't matter if your team is great if you still have to get up and help do something unethical. Also, be real. There are many great teams in the world, your current one is not the only one, find one at a company doing worthwhile things.
  • SeaDude 10y ago
    Don't pay your rent, forget your kids, live in a fuggin dream world... "it's that simple". Come on bro. Unless you are in some rare Netherlands / Amazonian fair trade, employee owned, tech company who pays in angel farts, you live in a capitalistic economy. YOU determine your own credo, your own ethics, your own constitution. Live it inside the Corp. Make that money and be a good person. And while your at it, look up the etymology of "corporation". It's absurd to think man could "give life to a corpse in order to make money" after running that mandate through everyone's "ethics filter" first. Ethics and values are driven by the humans not the Corp.
    • mplewis 10y ago
      Dude, he's in tech. He can fall out of a tree and get a job before he hits the ground. Finding another job with ethical practices isn't hard.
• segmondy 10y ago
  There is nothing like fighting fair in business. So long as it's legal you are good to go. If it's not legal, run! I like companies that are passionate about their product, customers and crushing their competitors. Lots of businesses with amazing products have gone bankrupt in the name of playing fair.
  • xiaoma 10y ago
    How much time do you devote to studying what is and isn't legal?
• andyidsinga 10y ago
  one way to help frame the question to yourself is: is the company "enron evil" or "apple/google/microsoft evil" and evaluate where your personal tolerance might be on that spectrum. (obviously enron evil is an extreme). also, do other people on your team feel similarly and therefore would likely leave in the next year or so? for me, of the answer was closer to enron evil, and the team likely won't be around in a year I would probably be looking to move on. alternative method : do you go home and agonize about it and vent to your close friends / partner constantly about the issues you struggle with? if si, might be a good indicator to get out. I once had a job like that and when I left my wife couldn't belive the difference in my after-work anxiety levels (which surprised me!); that's when I really knew I did the right thing.
  • xiaoma 10y ago
    _
    • MichaelGG 10y ago
      Didn't they collude to suppress salaries? They also made non-general-purpose computing mainstream and acceptable.
• a_small_island 10y ago
  How linked into the company are you? Are you linked into the dirty growth hacks? Is the CEO linked into the culture and aware of these 'sketchy things'? Below I will attempt to recruit responses from my hacker news connections.
• whack 10y ago
  1) Are they asking you to directly get involved in the sketchy/misleading things that they are doing? If yes, I think you should flat out refuse to do it, and start looking for another job asap. 2) Are their competitors playing fair? Moral purists may disagree with this, but if the people being hurt by your dirty tactics, are themselves fighting dirty, I think it's fair game. There's no reason why the weaker side should handicap itself against a stronger opponent who's fighting dirty. 3) Can you do more good than harm, from the inside? One way is by repeatedly raising this issue for broader discussion, when opportunities arise, and shaming people into more ethical behavior. Another way is by being a whistleblower. Edward Snowden did a lot more to champion privacy by working for the NSA and then being a whistleblower, than by refusing to work for the NSA at all. ---- If none of the above give you sufficient grounds to stay, then look for other companies to join in the medium term. There's no reason to rush and quit, without getting another good job lined up. And in the meantime, as a new hire, you're not really an important part of the company anyway, so you don't need to feel guilty about "enabling" anything. During your exit interview, if they ask you why you're leaving, consider telling them honestly that you don't feel comfortable working for a company that misleads its users. This just might be the most impactful thing you can do, in terms of persuading the company to change its ways. Lastly, kudos to you for making ethical behavior a priority.
• erehweb 10y ago
  Consider seeing a trained counselor to talk through this. I am not a trained counselor, but: It doesn't really matter if the policies are legal or ethical. If you feel ashamed of your work most days, that's not a good situation, and you should probably look around for another job. You should also consider that "behind every great fortune there lies a great crime". Pretty sure there is some work you can do which you would not be ashamed by, but it may take some extra effort / screening to find it.
• grimmdude 10y ago
  Either leave or put up with it.
• dferr 10y ago
  OP, my personal recommendation is to run for the hills. if you have the money, quit now and do a thorough job search. I recently took that bold step and I'm glad i did. I can't recommend this enough. find a job you really do have the best of both worlds, and stop settling for advantage/disadvantage positions. I worked with an awesome team, but the company was sketchy, and something tells me you're in the same industry i was... E-commerce. The team was awesome, and i still have real friends there because of it. but the management and business ethics were terrible, not to mention that non-technical folks were making technical decisions that overrode us. the hard part of leaving is that i felt trapped, that if i left, i'd be unprepared for the positions i wanted. but thankfully i was wrong. i decided that i'd really take the time to interview companies as much, if not more than they interviewed me. asking questions i had come up with that would spot companies like this. I even cut a few interviews short because of these questions, but it helped me clarify what i wanted, and where i would be happy. to measure out my results: * was already well paid, new job paid 40%-60% more(range for discretion) * new company actually cares about code quality, testing etc. * mgmt leaves tech decisions to us. * better, more flexible hours. * smarter people than myself, things to learn, and people to learn from.(education wasn't big at my last position) * a bit more stressful, in a good way. I feel like i have more responsibility, and that i truly own what i do. * path for career growth. i can see where my next steps lead me yes some of these are subjective, but thats the point. these are the things i wanted. you might have different needs, but i'm confident that this approach will make you happier, more in love with your career, and less jaded like i was. Best of luck OP.
  • SeaDude 10y ago
    "Run for the hills"... unless they pay well. I'm not sure where you all play, but I play in big Corp, with my own ethics and make a strong impact. You don't have to tow the line, sale ially if you kick ass. If you do indeed have values / ethics that STAND OUT (as opposed to just expressed on forums / on your sleeve) and you're a solid PRODUCER, nothing else matters. Go get it man! My experience (15 yrz in big Corp operations and now IT) is that your ethics / values "get out" on their own and make a deep impact; IF you're skilled at what you do.
    • 10y ago
• smoyer 10y ago
  It's okay throwaway173205 - Lot's off Googlers are becoming disillusioned by the failure to "Don't be evil".
  • Jerry2 10y ago
    Alphabet/Google retired its "Don't be evil" motto last year. http://time.com/4060575/alphabet-google-dont-be-evil/ http://time.com/4060575/alphabet-google-dont-be-evil/
    • smoyer 10y ago
      So now is it simply allowed or is it actively encouraged?
• SeaDude 10y ago
  Sounds very American to me. What's the problem? You make it sound as if Tech is some way insulated from the practices required for a business to exhibit constant growth. Want idealistic tech? Get the cuff out of big Corp OR... practice perception management. Do "you" (aka be yourself without compromise). If you have ethics / ideals to uphold, do so in a way that creates value for the project. Show how your values / ethics provide value to the project. Be dope. Produce results with your values / ethics in front of you. Production can't be disputed.
• downandout 10y ago
  >But the larger company has done some really sketchy things where they mislead users in the name of growth. They also have policies that help entrench it beyond what is fair. This could be the story of literally any large tech company today. Airbnb got its start by spamming people offering vacation homes for rent on Craigslist [1]. According to The Facebook Effect [2], Facebook was almost entirely dependent on its contact importer/spammer for its growth in its early days. On days when Hotmail blocked them for spamming, new user sign ups dropped by 80%; it was only after they cut a deal with Microsoft that included an agreement to not spam-box their emails that they continued to grow. When you look behind the curtain of successful modern startups, virtually all of them were built on mountains of spam and bad/unethical/illegal behavior, which they then publicly decry and block on their own platforms after they become influential enough to do so. If you have issues with this, Silicon Valley probably isn't the place for you. There are plenty of tech jobs in other areas - but look away from startups, because most are employing/willing to employ extremely aggressive techniques to win. [1] http://davegooden.com/2011/05/how-airbnb-became-a-billion-dollar-company/ http://davegooden.com/2011/05/how-airbnb-became-a-billion-do... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Facebook_Effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Facebook_Effect
  • paulsutter 10y ago
    As a user I found Facebook's contact importer to be useful, and LinkedIn's to be deceptive. Zynga was a terrible spammer /on/ Facebook, but Facebook eventually cleaned that up (too slowly, but they did). Google's growth was organic and based on a very high quality search product. The spammier search engines all basically died off. So I disagree with your premise that Silicon Valley success is generally based on spammy or unethical behaviors. Yes there is way too much of it, but no, it's not a necessary part of success.
    • downandout 10y ago
      Google is an extremely rare example of natural growth. Many found Facebook's contact importer in its early days to be deceptive (and many more still do). Their growth to more than a billion users was almost inevitable - as long as they could spam dozens or hundreds of people for each new user. LinkedIn is yet another example of success-by-spamming, and Facebook's "cleaning up" of Zynga and thousands of other smaller, similar businesses built on Facebook is an example of what I was referring to when I said that companies block the very kind of behavior that got them to where they are once they are big enough to do so. They do whatever they have to do to get through the door, then they shut it behind them. Is spamming/other bad behavior "necessary" for Internet success? That's an interesting question. I can only think of a small handful of successful Internet companies that magically went viral without such aggressive "growth hacking". The overwhelming evidence is that "necessary" may be a strong word, but "highly unlikely without it" is probably an accurate description.
• tehwalrus 10y ago
  Quit, and be honest about the reason. Obviously, best to find another job first. (I have done something like this at two companies, for similar ethics reasons.)
• jsprogrammer 10y ago
  Companies only act through their employees. You are an employee, so you either need to fix the company or stop being an employee.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• simbalion 10y ago
  Go into business for yourself. Truth be told, no matter what the circumstances are that is the correct answer.
• ereyes01 10y ago
  To paraphrase Mark Suster from his Both Sides of the Table blog, are you ready to learn or earn? If you're early in your career, and you are benefiting from working on hard engineering problems with a competent team, then I would advise you to try to enjoy the ride and then switch jobs once you think you've learned all you can from your team. As others have already explained, businesses are very frequently amoral and short-term-profit-driven. I went through my jaded-at-the-world phase, and by now I've mostly made my peace with that aspect of capitalism. I've learned that the world is often more complex than I had imagined. Sometimes, companies have to claw their way to survival through questionable means, but may still have a net positive effect on the world after enough time. And sometimes not... If this isn't your first, or even third rodeo, and you're ready to earn instead of learn (c.f. Mark Suster) then life is too short to be unhappy with where you work. Use your skills to build something your care about in a company you respect. My $0.02
• jwatte 10y ago
  Rather won than lose? Sounds like every big business I know. By "fair," do you mean "legally defensible in court" or "morally upright according to middle class values?" Turns out, successful large American companies go for the former; if you want the latter, then you probably need to look for a smaller colorant, ideally founded around a mission. Non profit and government work can also be good for that.
  • throwaway173205 10y ago
    I had worked at a different large tech company for a long while and never had the feeling that they treated their users or competitors this way.
• dewster 10y ago
  Life is really, really short. Always stand up for what you believe, you'll be a much better person for it. Don't have regrets on your deathbed.
• blondie9x 10y ago
  How long have you been there?
• grok2 10y ago
  This is one of those real-life-is-this-way kind of things...it's usually hard to change company culture because it reflects the nature or behavior or actions of somebody right from the top. Things won't change unless the person managing things changes. The best thing to do is to enjoy your job as much as you can and keep your little part of the world clean and maybe consider changing jobs if it makes you too unhappy or forces you to compromise on your view-point of how things should be.
• known 10y ago
  Introduce new tools, not policies to your big co;
• kalu 10y ago
  Have a look at Peter Drucker's classic "Managing Oneself" https://www.amazon.com/Managing-Oneself-Harvard-Business-Classics/dp/142212312X https://www.amazon.com/Managing-Oneself-Harvard-Business-Cla... Drucker takes a firm stand on this issue. He advises to "put values first"
• formula_ninguna 10y ago
  What could you do? You're an employee. Nothing. Try talking to them.
• ThomPete 10y ago
  You should probably quit. Before you do though, ask yourself if these "bad" actions are due to the fact that it's a large organization and these kind of things will always happen there or if it's actually ill intent. Since I don't know which category (as I don't know the details) I would guess it's really just a question of the former rather the latter. Size alone will make you rub some people the wrong way, make mistakes that have consequences and so on. Even a company like google who had the whole "don't be evil" had to change that because they learned that being evil really isn't something you necessarily want to be but in the views of others your actions might be interpreted like that. Personally I am of the view that most organization even the really large ones are mostly good but will purely from their size make bad decisions here and there. You cannot not have that because size is power and power demands sacrifice.
• r2dnb 10y ago
  When I was employed, I considered that I was working for the Founder/CEO/Director so one of the most important things for me was to be inspired and in-sync with him. He was the one I would make richer, so I had to be happy and proud to make this person richer. This has never been my intention, but it turned out that that one of these persons became my investor. The takeaway is that focusing on the mission and culture will always pay the highest dividends (even though these dividends may not be money initially) That being said, I have no problem with unethical, but do have a problem with dishonest and deceitful. Sextoys are unethical, cold calls are unethical etc... I agree with those saying that a company needs to get the ball rolling. Organic growth doesn't start a business, it makes it sustainable. Think about the healthy food business. Being healthy is simple : eat raw fruits, eat raw vegetables, repeat. Yet even an "ethical" company will need to add many refined ingredients to push the expiry date farer, and differentiate on colour, taste, etc... They need to literally add poison to health. Is that unethical ? If you say yes, then all healthy food companies should be fresh fruit market sellers in order to remain ethical. There's no such thing as ethics in business. But there is integrity and mission. Integrity is standing for who you are. Sometimes standing for who you are requires kicking people in the noise in bars, other times it requires remaining silent in front of the greatest outrage. Individual actions alone cannot define an identity, therefore no single action or act should be flagged as always bad or always good. Good has been defended with violence (bastille day), bad has been defended with silence (slavery). >What should I do Do not focus on what they do but on why they do it. It wouldn't be wise since a company never is where it would like to be. Quite frankly, ask a 5min meeting with your CEO/or a very senior manager, this is the kind of chat they usually love to have. And perhaps nobody ever told him. In addition to feeling relieved you will also score, they'll give you credit for that. Simply, don't sound like you think you are better than them, and don't lecture them. Just voice your concern, and be honest, curious, and humble.
• greenspot 10y ago
  Slightly OT: For a decade, software engineers have been facing such a huge demand for their profession that their perception of a 'job' got a bit distorted. For most of them and those who chose popular stacks it's usually quite easy to get a job. Or any job. This gives them superpowers and enables them to ask for a lot--high salaries, tons of perks, free food, freedom and maybe a company with the right vision, leadership and policies. But what they forget in all this abudance of options is that a job is a job. You can call it career, give it exciting titles and enrich it with stock options, it stays a job. You can work at Google, at a fancy office, with super smart coworkers and free a-la-carte-food everyday but it is still just a job and you are not free. And even Google has its dark sides the employees accept. Let's not start to talk about Facebook, Microsoft or Apple. Maybe one company has shady growth tacticts (btw which successful company doesn't have them? Even Google abused all their properties to push Chrome), the next one lacks free food or uses an aged stack. Remember it's always a job. And if one doesn't like it, he might try to find a better option but shouldn't be suprised about new drawbacks. Or he could try to start his own company. A perfect one where everything is perfect for everyone. Then one will realize that many things are more complicated than they seem. There's no perfect job.
  • eyan 10y ago
    I think this is not OT at all. This is the answer to most job related should-i-stay-or-should-i-go or what-should-i-do questions. It. Is. A. Job. If you can't accept that you're in a job and the feeling of entitlement shines thru, that would just be whining in my book. And yes, HN, lots of that in here.
    • SFJulie 10y ago
      We have a job to live, we don't live for work. I recently changed career to become whatever I found honest just in case it would make my life different. Well, being a human beings seems to come with a handicap we almost all have moral compass. And most of my job in IT have been in the dark side of my compass recently. Right now, I maybe risking my body moving heavy loads with poor equipment and security, commercial making occasional mistakes forces us to do 12h continuous loading of trucks else the company bankrupts and none of us are paid BUT from my perspective it is a great improvement. Customers are sometimes saying thanks. Coworkers are sometimes saying thanks, and boss too. We are working as a team and when everybody does his/her job correctly we have satisfactions. A satisfaction I was missing. And when the day is over, the job is not in my head anymore. I can once again live a normal life, we don't scam customers, we don't break their goods, we are the most honest we can giving the stupidity of some regulations and of some dishonest customers. And fuck, being able to feel proud again is worthy the quasi state of misery I live in. Sometimes, money does not matter as much as feeling you are not wasting your life doing something that makes you something you will come to despise. Feeling an honest human again worth every single $ and all my savings I lost in the conversion.
• InclinedPlane 10y ago
  At the end of the day there's no such thing as a perfect place to work, even in regards to ethics of the company. You need to spend time seriously thinking about the company's behavior and your own personal values (and also judging the company's behavior fairly and not necessarily too harshly, no individual person is perfect and company's are imperfect as well), questioning why you feel a certain way, whether it's justified, and how much it's justified. And then you need to make a decision on your own, keeping in mind that you do have the freedom to choose where to work. And also remembering that the work you do is much more valuable than the compensation you receive, so when you work for a company you are making a very serious and very significant contribution to them, you're supporting them, and by extension you are supporting what they do. If you feel that your employer is acting in a way that you cannot support, then you need to go somewhere else. It's very easy to see ourselves as swept along by the tide of history, moved by bigger forces all around us. But we are those forces. Every action we take every day is like a drop in the ocean of history, and maybe sometimes our drops end up adding together to make something great, or maybe they make something that is hurtful. Whether or not we can individually turn back a tide that might be perpetuating or creating hurt or evil we can decide whether or not to contribute to it ourselves, and that makes a difference to our lives and incrementally to the world at large as well.
• Zelmor 10y ago
  So you are working for Oracle, OP?
• Nomentatus 10y ago
  Start by voting for people who want to enforce our existing laws against fraud, leveraging monopoly power, and who might treat public utilities (any business with a network effect) (whether shiny or not) as public utilities and regulate 'em like our great grandfathers did. There aren't many, but there are a few. "I'm enjoying my work with the Imperium and they seem well-organized but some of their policies, like mass death, fer instance..."