6 ms·

Ummm... "30 minutes to vacate"? Are they crazy? That's a 100% illegal eviction. RPAPL § 853 -- treble damages NYCAC § 26-521 - 529 -- misdemeanor, civil penal

by phonon 10y ago

Ummm... "30 minutes to vacate"? Are they crazy? That's a 100% illegal eviction. RPAPL § 853 -- treble damages NYCAC § 26-521 - 529 -- misdemeanor, civil penalties

tptacek 10y ago
That's housing law. These aren't standard residential leases. They're very clear about this when you sign up.
- phonon 10y ago
  They might be very clear about it, but it doesn't mean anything. Just because you call a lease a "member agreement" or somesuch, doesn't mean it supersedes state and local laws meant to protect tenants.
  - jacalata 10y ago
    It doesn't supersede anything, it should be completely unrelated. Do you have any evidence that residential tenancy law applies to office leases or co-worker spaces?
    - phonon 10y ago
      RPAPL § 853 Commercial Lease "Having thus substantiated that the value of its discarded records and personal property is $145,695.20 and that these records and property were discarded pursuant to a wrongful eviction as established by the complaint and, moreover, admitted by defendants according to the uncontroverted proof, plaintiff is entitled to recover treble damages of $437,085.60 under RPAPL § 853." http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/943/328/2376045/ http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/94... I was wrong about NYCAC § 26-521 - 529, that's only for dwellings.
      - phonon 10y ago
        Even if the courts determine it's a license, and not a lease (I don't think WeWork has been tested yet), RPAPL § 853 applies, and now RPAPL § 713 (7) would as well. (10 days notice) https://commercialobserver.com/2013/11/the-dirt-dictionary-l-is-for-lease-or-maybe-its-a-license/ https://commercialobserver.com/2013/11/the-dirt-dictionary-l... Note WeWork usually gives you a designated, numbered, suite, which might confirm that it's a lease. In the above-- "One last “don’t” for a licensor looking to remain one in the eyes of the law: don’t designate a particular space for licensee’s exclusive use. "
  - gknoy 10y ago
    I don't know if that's true, but I imagine that in order to get redress for such a claim, one would need to take them to court.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    None of the list of remedies you provided upthread appear to apply to commercial leases, even if terminated unlawfully, so I'm not sure what we're still debating. We appear to be pretty far from the "100%" confidence level you originally provided.
    - phonon 10y ago
      See my other replies below.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        I did. They aren't responsive to this comment. If you disagree, can you explain how?
        phonon 10y ago
        Even if this would be considered a commercial license (and not a commercial lease) RPAPL § 853 (treble damages for unlawful eviction) and RPAPL § 713 (7) (10 day eviction notice required for a commercial license) apply. https://commercialobserver.com/2013/11/the-dirt-dictionary-l-is-for-lease-or-maybe-its-a-license/ https://commercialobserver.com/2013/11/the-dirt-dictionary-l... https://www.blumberglegalforms.com/html/05508103080008AdamL.pdf https://www.blumberglegalforms.com/html/05508103080008AdamL....
        tptacek 10y ago
        First, the hot-desk WeWork subscription contract is worded to avoid "exclusive use". If that's what they --- like most WeWork users --- had, it's unlikely they had a lease at all. Second, even if they did have a lease, statutory notice and penalties are nowhere nearly as strict as they are for residential lockouts (where statutory civil punitive damages untethered to actual damage do in fact apply). In any case, if they want to claim damages, they're going to have to (a) document actual damages from WeWork's action and then (b) take it to court and wait a year or two to have a chance at recovering, in what will, due to their own actions, be a complicated case. Nothing is going to happen here. Everyone is simply going to move on.
- bsder 10y ago
  Commercial real estate also has some protections. However, the real problem is that WeWork opens themselves up to a lawsuit which risks bringing all their real number into the spotlight. If I were a competitor, I'd fund these guys in a lawsuit against WeWork who would be willing to pay a LOT of money to make it go away rather than have a very public discovery phase.
zekevermillion 10y ago
Not sure if that applies to business tenants. Also it's not a lease, it is a "license agreement" haha.

by phonon 10y ago

Ummm... "30 minutes to vacate"? Are they crazy? That's a 100% illegal eviction. RPAPL § 853 -- treble damages NYCAC § 26-521 - 529 -- misdemeanor, civil penalties

tptacek 10y ago

That's housing law. These aren't standard residential leases. They're very clear about this when you sign up.

phonon 10y ago
They might be very clear about it, but it doesn't mean anything. Just because you call a lease a "member agreement" or somesuch, doesn't mean it supersedes state and local laws meant to protect tenants.
- jacalata 10y ago
  It doesn't supersede anything, it should be completely unrelated. Do you have any evidence that residential tenancy law applies to office leases or co-worker spaces?
  - phonon 10y ago
    RPAPL § 853 Commercial Lease "Having thus substantiated that the value of its discarded records and personal property is $145,695.20 and that these records and property were discarded pursuant to a wrongful eviction as established by the complaint and, moreover, admitted by defendants according to the uncontroverted proof, plaintiff is entitled to recover treble damages of $437,085.60 under RPAPL § 853." http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/943/328/2376045/ http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/94... I was wrong about NYCAC § 26-521 - 529, that's only for dwellings.
    - phonon 10y ago
      Even if the courts determine it's a license, and not a lease (I don't think WeWork has been tested yet), RPAPL § 853 applies, and now RPAPL § 713 (7) would as well. (10 days notice) https://commercialobserver.com/2013/11/the-dirt-dictionary-l-is-for-lease-or-maybe-its-a-license/ https://commercialobserver.com/2013/11/the-dirt-dictionary-l... Note WeWork usually gives you a designated, numbered, suite, which might confirm that it's a lease. In the above-- "One last “don’t” for a licensor looking to remain one in the eyes of the law: don’t designate a particular space for licensee’s exclusive use. "
- gknoy 10y ago
  I don't know if that's true, but I imagine that in order to get redress for such a claim, one would need to take them to court.
- tptacek 10y ago
  None of the list of remedies you provided upthread appear to apply to commercial leases, even if terminated unlawfully, so I'm not sure what we're still debating. We appear to be pretty far from the "100%" confidence level you originally provided.
  - phonon 10y ago
    See my other replies below.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      I did. They aren't responsive to this comment. If you disagree, can you explain how?
      - phonon 10y ago
        Even if this would be considered a commercial license (and not a commercial lease) RPAPL § 853 (treble damages for unlawful eviction) and RPAPL § 713 (7) (10 day eviction notice required for a commercial license) apply. https://commercialobserver.com/2013/11/the-dirt-dictionary-l-is-for-lease-or-maybe-its-a-license/ https://commercialobserver.com/2013/11/the-dirt-dictionary-l... https://www.blumberglegalforms.com/html/05508103080008AdamL.pdf https://www.blumberglegalforms.com/html/05508103080008AdamL....
        tptacek 10y ago
        First, the hot-desk WeWork subscription contract is worded to avoid "exclusive use". If that's what they --- like most WeWork users --- had, it's unlikely they had a lease at all. Second, even if they did have a lease, statutory notice and penalties are nowhere nearly as strict as they are for residential lockouts (where statutory civil punitive damages untethered to actual damage do in fact apply). In any case, if they want to claim damages, they're going to have to (a) document actual damages from WeWork's action and then (b) take it to court and wait a year or two to have a chance at recovering, in what will, due to their own actions, be a complicated case. Nothing is going to happen here. Everyone is simply going to move on.
bsder 10y ago
Commercial real estate also has some protections. However, the real problem is that WeWork opens themselves up to a lawsuit which risks bringing all their real number into the spotlight. If I were a competitor, I'd fund these guys in a lawsuit against WeWork who would be willing to pay a LOT of money to make it go away rather than have a very public discovery phase.

zekevermillion 10y ago

Not sure if that applies to business tenants. Also it's not a lease, it is a "license agreement" haha.