6 ms·

... that is not what slavery is

by cp9 10y ago

daveloyall 10y ago
Employment contracts aside... Let's just ask ourselves, is having a job optional? Of course it is optional, because no one is holding a gun to your head, right? But "everybody knows" that 1. if you don't work, you'll sooner or later (perhaps sooner!) be homeless and 2. homelessness can lead to sudden, violent death. Just because the trigger and the barrel are far apart doesn't mean it isn't a gun.
- squeaky-clean 10y ago
  > Employment contracts aside... Let's just ask ourselves, is having a job optional? The majority of people need to work if they want to survive, that's true. So "jobs" aren't voluntary. But "a job" is. You don't have to pick plants out in a field if you don't want to. If you don't like your position, or boss, or pay, you can quit and look for work elsewhere. Or even have multiple jobs! A slave doesn't get to say "This other company is nicer and pays better, so I'm leaving here and going there instead." But you can.
  - daveloyall 10y ago
    Slaves don't get to pick where they sleep, either. Thing is, neither do most people. SELECT TOP 1 job,residence FROM jobs JOIN residences WHERE jobs.pay > residences.rent ORDER BY jobs.pay DESC, residences.rent ASC it's common to add some qualifications like... AND jobs.category NOT IN ('murder','prostitution') AND residences.crime_factor < 0.4 ...etc. But that doesn't change the fact that LOTS of people believe in their hearts that they have absolutely no choice but to continue doing exactly what they are doing. I'd hazard the guess that almost all of us have actually removed WHERE predicates because during the initial searches (back in late childhood), zero rows were returned. Predicates like jobs.category = 'helping_people' or residences.climate = 'tropical' If you are thinking that it's just not possible for everyone to have their ideal job, fine. It's not. But stop for just a second and review that survival part... Why exactly is it so hard to survive without a job, in 2016? I mean, physically. You need air and water and food and shelter. Those are listed in decreasing order of necessary frequency. Seems to me that the problem is rent and the social framework that enforces eviction via violence--even if the space isn't otherwise being used. I, for one, would not die without a job--not from starvation. But I would eventually be arrested, beat up, stripped of my possessions, etc, and that would eventually lead to death. The jobless don't die--they are killed. Slavery.
    - khedoros 10y ago
      In those terms, we are enslaved by the existence of personal property. Or maybe by the existence of society, in general. Society's requirements force you into a certain set of paths. > Why exactly is it so hard to survive without a job, in 2016? Why should it not be, for a sufficiently broad definition of "job"?
      - TeMPOraL 10y ago
        Because it seems that the "survival" part could - and should - be automated away in this day and age. Just like we try and do with all the other boring stuff we don't want to do over and over and over again.
        khedoros 10y ago
        Automation is an effort multiplier, but it's not a cure-all, and it's not free. Building and maintaining the system will ultimately take some sort of time, work, or money input from people. So, if someone isn't going to somehow contribute to the input, why should they benefit from the output? And if they are contributing somehow, then isn't that a job?
        daveloyall 10y ago
        Give me that job, and I'll happily shut up!
      - daveloyall 10y ago
        I like how you're thinking. > [Suppose] we are enslaved by the > existence of personal property ... Okay. All personal property, or would could this be narrowed down to real estate? > [Maybe we are enslaved] by the > existence of society, in general. I hope not. I hope to isolate the problem down to something more specific, and file a bug report. This topic is a hobby of mine.
  - NumberCruncher 10y ago
    Having the choice to choose which ruler you serve it's not what it seems to be. As Machiavelli wrote: >> for men change their rulers willingly, hoping to better themselves [...] they are deceived, because they afterwards find by experience they have gone from bad to worse Not being a slave means not having a ruler.
- kkoomi 10y ago
  I, too, hate the endless mouse wheel of employment. However, having a job is a COMPLETELY OPTIONAL choice that one makes; nothing is stopping any of us from living on a deserted island without a job. Having a job is the cost of living in society. It sucks and needs improvement, but it is not as bad as slavery where you have no choice and not much gain.
  - glennsl 10y ago
    Don't you think the owner of this deserted island with enough resources to live on might at some point object to you being there and force you off his land? There is no living outside of society, outside of private property and the rule of law. There is no real choice here.
    - daveloyall 10y ago
      Right. Those systems ate the world a long time ago. This is sort of a proxy conversation about money. I'd like to point out that manufacturing your own money from scratch is a good way to get shot.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Yeah, I stopped calling it "slavery" because it tends to derail the discussion. However, if you say that slavery gives you "no choice and not much gain" then the jobs are mostly improvement in the second aspect - you still don't have a choice, but you get a bit more in return.
  - rad88 10y ago
    > Having a job is the cost of living in society. In other words, we are born into debt and must work all our lives to pay off that debt. This is true in so many ways, and makes what we're talking about amount to at best a kind of bonded child labor. You don't have to think of it as slavery, but it's very very far from COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. There is no deserted island to live on!! There are no guarantees of universal housing, or healthcare, or much else that is needed to survive. Until there are, working vs. not working can never be a real choice. The working class by definition must work in order to live.
- madelinecameron 10y ago
  Everything is a gun then. I ate a banana once. I will die some day. Bananas are guns.
NumberCruncher 10y ago
By "slave" I mean somebody who is not free in the sense of: >> A free man sells the results of his work. A free man cleans someone's house and bills him when the work is done. A free man drives passengers from the airport to their home and bills them when they get there. A free man creates a software module and bills the client when it's ready. A free man translates a document and bills per page. A free man cooks a cake and bills for it. A free man sells results, not time. Also, a free man takes care of the food and security on his or her own. Is it more risky? Yes. Is it more stressful? Yes. But that's what freedom is about. Source: http://www.yegor256.com/2015/07/21/hourly-pay-modern-slavery.html http://www.yegor256.com/2015/07/21/hourly-pay-modern-slavery...

... that is not what slavery is

by cp9 10y ago

... that is not what slavery is

Employment contracts aside... Let's just ask ourselves, is having a job optional? Of course it is optional, because no one is holding a gun to your head, right? But "everybody knows" that 1. if you don't work, you'll sooner or later (perhaps sooner!) be homeless and 2. homelessness can lead to sudden, violent death. Just because the trigger and the barrel are far apart doesn't mean it isn't a gun.

squeaky-clean 10y ago
> Employment contracts aside... Let's just ask ourselves, is having a job optional? The majority of people need to work if they want to survive, that's true. So "jobs" aren't voluntary. But "a job" is. You don't have to pick plants out in a field if you don't want to. If you don't like your position, or boss, or pay, you can quit and look for work elsewhere. Or even have multiple jobs! A slave doesn't get to say "This other company is nicer and pays better, so I'm leaving here and going there instead." But you can.
- daveloyall 10y ago
  Slaves don't get to pick where they sleep, either. Thing is, neither do most people. SELECT TOP 1 job,residence FROM jobs JOIN residences WHERE jobs.pay > residences.rent ORDER BY jobs.pay DESC, residences.rent ASC it's common to add some qualifications like... AND jobs.category NOT IN ('murder','prostitution') AND residences.crime_factor < 0.4 ...etc. But that doesn't change the fact that LOTS of people believe in their hearts that they have absolutely no choice but to continue doing exactly what they are doing. I'd hazard the guess that almost all of us have actually removed WHERE predicates because during the initial searches (back in late childhood), zero rows were returned. Predicates like jobs.category = 'helping_people' or residences.climate = 'tropical' If you are thinking that it's just not possible for everyone to have their ideal job, fine. It's not. But stop for just a second and review that survival part... Why exactly is it so hard to survive without a job, in 2016? I mean, physically. You need air and water and food and shelter. Those are listed in decreasing order of necessary frequency. Seems to me that the problem is rent and the social framework that enforces eviction via violence--even if the space isn't otherwise being used. I, for one, would not die without a job--not from starvation. But I would eventually be arrested, beat up, stripped of my possessions, etc, and that would eventually lead to death. The jobless don't die--they are killed. Slavery.
  - khedoros 10y ago
    In those terms, we are enslaved by the existence of personal property. Or maybe by the existence of society, in general. Society's requirements force you into a certain set of paths. > Why exactly is it so hard to survive without a job, in 2016? Why should it not be, for a sufficiently broad definition of "job"?
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      Because it seems that the "survival" part could - and should - be automated away in this day and age. Just like we try and do with all the other boring stuff we don't want to do over and over and over again.
      - khedoros 10y ago
        Automation is an effort multiplier, but it's not a cure-all, and it's not free. Building and maintaining the system will ultimately take some sort of time, work, or money input from people. So, if someone isn't going to somehow contribute to the input, why should they benefit from the output? And if they are contributing somehow, then isn't that a job?
        daveloyall 10y ago
        Give me that job, and I'll happily shut up!
    - daveloyall 10y ago
      I like how you're thinking. > [Suppose] we are enslaved by the > existence of personal property ... Okay. All personal property, or would could this be narrowed down to real estate? > [Maybe we are enslaved] by the > existence of society, in general. I hope not. I hope to isolate the problem down to something more specific, and file a bug report. This topic is a hobby of mine.
- NumberCruncher 10y ago
  Having the choice to choose which ruler you serve it's not what it seems to be. As Machiavelli wrote: >> for men change their rulers willingly, hoping to better themselves [...] they are deceived, because they afterwards find by experience they have gone from bad to worse Not being a slave means not having a ruler.
kkoomi 10y ago
I, too, hate the endless mouse wheel of employment. However, having a job is a COMPLETELY OPTIONAL choice that one makes; nothing is stopping any of us from living on a deserted island without a job. Having a job is the cost of living in society. It sucks and needs improvement, but it is not as bad as slavery where you have no choice and not much gain.
- glennsl 10y ago
  Don't you think the owner of this deserted island with enough resources to live on might at some point object to you being there and force you off his land? There is no living outside of society, outside of private property and the rule of law. There is no real choice here.
  - daveloyall 10y ago
    Right. Those systems ate the world a long time ago. This is sort of a proxy conversation about money. I'd like to point out that manufacturing your own money from scratch is a good way to get shot.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Yeah, I stopped calling it "slavery" because it tends to derail the discussion. However, if you say that slavery gives you "no choice and not much gain" then the jobs are mostly improvement in the second aspect - you still don't have a choice, but you get a bit more in return.
- rad88 10y ago
  > Having a job is the cost of living in society. In other words, we are born into debt and must work all our lives to pay off that debt. This is true in so many ways, and makes what we're talking about amount to at best a kind of bonded child labor. You don't have to think of it as slavery, but it's very very far from COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. There is no deserted island to live on!! There are no guarantees of universal housing, or healthcare, or much else that is needed to survive. Until there are, working vs. not working can never be a real choice. The working class by definition must work in order to live.
madelinecameron 10y ago
Everything is a gun then. I ate a banana once. I will die some day. Bananas are guns.

NumberCruncher 10y ago

By "slave" I mean somebody who is not free in the sense of: >> A free man sells the results of his work. A free man cleans someone's house and bills him when the work is done. A free man drives passengers from the airport to their home and bills them when they get there. A free man creates a software module and bills the client when it's ready. A free man translates a document and bills per page. A free man cooks a cake and bills for it. A free man sells results, not time. Also, a free man takes care of the food and security on his or her own. Is it more risky? Yes. Is it more stressful? Yes. But that's what freedom is about. Source: http://www.yegor256.com/2015/07/21/hourly-pay-modern-slavery.html http://www.yegor256.com/2015/07/21/hourly-pay-modern-slavery...