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> Bans, yes, people get punished for breaking the rules. But having your posts quietly vanish without warning? This comment particularly stuck out to me. Very

> Bans, yes, people get punished for breaking the rules. But having your posts quietly vanish without warning? This comment particularly stuck out to me. Very few other communication platforms of Reddit's ilk will go through the process of shadowbanning users - that is - the user still has full functionality of the site, however their comments are not visible to other users; only themselves. To an unknowing user, it appears no action has been taken on their account. It is a shockingly effective means of silencing dissenters or those who disagree with the majority; and this punishment has extended far beyond those who speak abusively/offensively. The nefarious part is wasting the user's time as well.

toss1941 10y ago
If only game makers would build this kind of system into their Anti-cheats, make the cheater think for as long as possible they are ruining other people's day only to find out that the last hour has been against AI with canned outrage responses from the AI.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  I think most game makers just put cheaters into a cheater-only pool of players.
  - tyleraldrich 10y ago
    I don't know of any game makers that do this. They probably should, like how Dota 2 will put players who abandon games often into games with other leavers, but most popular games go through "ban waves" to get rid of groups of cheaters at once (Valve has done this many times with CS: GO for example).
    - pavel_lishin 10y ago
      > I don't know of any game makers that do this. Well, apparently Rockstar did this for Max Payne 3 in 2012, and apparently it also applies to GTA-V http://www.rockstargames.com/newswire/article/35441/taking-aim-at-cheaters-in-max-payne-3.html http://www.rockstargames.com/newswire/article/35441/taking-a... http://www.gta5tv.com/gta-v-cheaters-pool-details/ http://www.gta5tv.com/gta-v-cheaters-pool-details/ http://kotaku.com/gta-player-says-he-hired-cheater-to-rescue-him-from-a-1706331446 http://kotaku.com/gta-player-says-he-hired-cheater-to-rescue...
      - tyleraldrich 10y ago
        Huh, I had no idea GTA5 did that. Thanks for the info, I really would love to see more game developers implement something like this.
  - retox 10y ago
    I like this idea; let's see who has the best and biggest cheats. A comedian once suggested we have the Olympics and we do today, and a no-holds-barred Cheaters Olympics where those competing can take any substance they like, to really see how far the human body can be pushed. I wonder how long until we have to have a regular and an augmented Olympics.
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      That sounds like Quake. It isn't quite, but Quake is the closest thing. Quake's metagame has evolved around extreme dexterity, complicated scripting, and an obsessive desire to use every trick in the book to push youself beyond the game's intended limits. This is why things like the bunnyhop, the rocketjump, and wallrunning are not only accepted, but expected.
- Houshalter 10y ago
  Some minecraft servers used to do this. The "griefer" would see blocks being destroyed and placed, but their actions would have no effect on the server. Eventually they would get bored and leave on their own. It was hilarious too. I think current anti-cheat tool suck. Cheaters are usually obvious, sometimes blatantly flying around, or performing inhuman actions. Simple machine learning should be able to detect cheats with high accuracy.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    yes, but then we get an arms race, and that ends with all of the best humans who aren't cheating getting banned as well.
pavel_lishin 10y ago
As someone who's run a (small) forum, I completely understand the appeal of shadowbanning. It's incredibly effective if your goal is to make a community a usable place without spending most of your waking hours dealing with trolls and shitbags. A single person can eat up hours of your time if you attempt to reason with them. They'll create new accounts, they'll use accounts they created a long time ago against this eventuality, they'll make appeals to you and to other users, and they will stir up as much shit as possible. I've had a person literally call me on the phone to complain that their account was banned. Shadowbanning means that none of this happens. I check a box, and the collective community can breathe easily, and I can actually sleep. It's an incredible force multiplier.
dimino 10y ago
The admins of Reddit have said over and over again that shadowbanning is for spammers, and if non-spammers are getting shadowbanned, it's due to a bug. It was never and is not currently used to silence humans, only robots.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  right... /sarcasm
  - dimino 10y ago
    Please follow HN rules when commenting.
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      I fail to see where you find issue with my comment in reference to the rules. If you thought I was making a contentless post, sure, I can fix that: plenty of people who weren't spammers have been shadowbanned. Just look it up.
      - dimino 10y ago
        Anyone who is currently shadowbanned and not as a result of bot-spamming can request a removal of the shadowban from the admins and they will happily comply. The fact that people have been shadowbanned is not evidence that it was intentional.
        qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Okay, so you think I'm wrong. That's fine. But I didn't violate HN rules. I read then twice, just to check. And while I freely admit that I might be wrong, in this case, it doesn't actually matter. Even if shadowbans are only given to spammers, that's not what the reddit community thinks is happening, leading to the current social climate on reddit.

toss1941 10y ago

If only game makers would build this kind of system into their Anti-cheats, make the cheater think for as long as possible they are ruining other people's day only to find out that the last hour has been against AI with canned outrage responses from the AI.

pavel_lishin 10y ago
I think most game makers just put cheaters into a cheater-only pool of players.
- tyleraldrich 10y ago
  I don't know of any game makers that do this. They probably should, like how Dota 2 will put players who abandon games often into games with other leavers, but most popular games go through "ban waves" to get rid of groups of cheaters at once (Valve has done this many times with CS: GO for example).
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    > I don't know of any game makers that do this. Well, apparently Rockstar did this for Max Payne 3 in 2012, and apparently it also applies to GTA-V http://www.rockstargames.com/newswire/article/35441/taking-aim-at-cheaters-in-max-payne-3.html http://www.rockstargames.com/newswire/article/35441/taking-a... http://www.gta5tv.com/gta-v-cheaters-pool-details/ http://www.gta5tv.com/gta-v-cheaters-pool-details/ http://kotaku.com/gta-player-says-he-hired-cheater-to-rescue-him-from-a-1706331446 http://kotaku.com/gta-player-says-he-hired-cheater-to-rescue...
    - tyleraldrich 10y ago
      Huh, I had no idea GTA5 did that. Thanks for the info, I really would love to see more game developers implement something like this.
- retox 10y ago
  I like this idea; let's see who has the best and biggest cheats. A comedian once suggested we have the Olympics and we do today, and a no-holds-barred Cheaters Olympics where those competing can take any substance they like, to really see how far the human body can be pushed. I wonder how long until we have to have a regular and an augmented Olympics.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    That sounds like Quake. It isn't quite, but Quake is the closest thing. Quake's metagame has evolved around extreme dexterity, complicated scripting, and an obsessive desire to use every trick in the book to push youself beyond the game's intended limits. This is why things like the bunnyhop, the rocketjump, and wallrunning are not only accepted, but expected.
Houshalter 10y ago
Some minecraft servers used to do this. The "griefer" would see blocks being destroyed and placed, but their actions would have no effect on the server. Eventually they would get bored and leave on their own. It was hilarious too. I think current anti-cheat tool suck. Cheaters are usually obvious, sometimes blatantly flying around, or performing inhuman actions. Simple machine learning should be able to detect cheats with high accuracy.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  yes, but then we get an arms race, and that ends with all of the best humans who aren't cheating getting banned as well.

pavel_lishin 10y ago

As someone who's run a (small) forum, I completely understand the appeal of shadowbanning. It's incredibly effective if your goal is to make a community a usable place without spending most of your waking hours dealing with trolls and shitbags. A single person can eat up hours of your time if you attempt to reason with them. They'll create new accounts, they'll use accounts they created a long time ago against this eventuality, they'll make appeals to you and to other users, and they will stir up as much shit as possible. I've had a person literally call me on the phone to complain that their account was banned. Shadowbanning means that none of this happens. I check a box, and the collective community can breathe easily, and I can actually sleep. It's an incredible force multiplier.

dimino 10y ago

The admins of Reddit have said over and over again that shadowbanning is for spammers, and if non-spammers are getting shadowbanned, it's due to a bug. It was never and is not currently used to silence humans, only robots.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago
right... /sarcasm
- dimino 10y ago
  Please follow HN rules when commenting.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    I fail to see where you find issue with my comment in reference to the rules. If you thought I was making a contentless post, sure, I can fix that: plenty of people who weren't spammers have been shadowbanned. Just look it up.
    - dimino 10y ago
      Anyone who is currently shadowbanned and not as a result of bot-spamming can request a removal of the shadowban from the admins and they will happily comply. The fact that people have been shadowbanned is not evidence that it was intentional.
      - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Okay, so you think I'm wrong. That's fine. But I didn't violate HN rules. I read then twice, just to check. And while I freely admit that I might be wrong, in this case, it doesn't actually matter. Even if shadowbans are only given to spammers, that's not what the reddit community thinks is happening, leading to the current social climate on reddit.