4 ms·

You have ownership of a piece of land, not a spot on a map. If the land moves then you still own the land even if it is non-contiguous. I am not sure what happ

by evgen 10y ago

You have ownership of a piece of land, not a spot on a map. If the land moves then you still own the land even if it is non-contiguous. I am not sure what happens in the case where some event creates new land adjacent to yours such as the case where a lava flow extends land out past yours into what was once water or if an uplift fault raises seabed to become contiguous with yours, but I would assume that the state would claim ownership over the new land.

ptaipale 10y ago
What happens to "newly created land" depends on local legislation. Where I live (Finland) this is a common question, because it happens all the time. We're still recovering from the depression of ground, caused by latest Ice Age. In Western Finland and Eastern Sweden, the land rises at about 1 cm per year, thus claiming area from the sea. 1 cm per year may not sound like a lot, but in shallow waters, it means that entire coastal towns become inland towns over the course of 100 years. Harbours have to be relocated, etc. Kilometres of new land is claimed from the sea over the course of centuries (and within a couple of millenia, the Gulf of Bothnia will dry up in places and create a land connection across, assuming water level rise caused by global climate change does not slow it down too much). Over here, the law works so that the newly created land at the shore becomes property of the owner of the water area (fishing) rights which is a "commonwealth" of local land owners, but the owner of the particular piece of land formerly adjacent to the sea or lake has the pre-emptive right to purchase the area and attach it to his/her property, at a "fair" price i.e. price comparable to the price of his/her own property. So in effect you have to remember to buy regularly (every few decades) the new land between your plot and the water. But that was Finland. How does this work regarding land created or lost in earthquakes in California? Let's assume that the fault line of tectonic plates happens to run through your plot, the plates push at each other and then in an earthquake run over each other, and the corner points of your plot move closer to each other. Is that just your loss? I.e. your plot became smaller? And likewise, if the borders of your plot move away from each other in an earthquake, your property expands, possibly impacting e.g. how large buildings can be constructed according to zoning regulations?
hueving 10y ago
>You have ownership of a piece of land, not a spot on a map. That's sort of silly. How do you define a 'piece of land'? What if I dig out my piece of land so it's a 100ft hole and then there is a sheering motion from the plates so half of my hole slides under someone else's land? Do I still own both halves? If so, do I no longer own the land at the bottom of the top half? If not, then it would not seem that I do not own a 'piece of land'.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Land ownership is not really absolute; it is always subject to the definitions of the local law and, ultimately, the whims of the government. You don't have complete power over what you do to your land, because the government has the last word. On the other hand, without government, there is no land ownership because the definition and enforcement of land ownership is one of the most ultimate functions of any government, since the creation of first city-states (e.g. ancient Babylon). So if the government permits you to dig that hole in the first place, then what happens in an earthquake depends on local legislation. I don't really know how it works e.g. in the U.S. but I would assume that the boundary of your piece of land is defined in relation to physical markers that are recorded with their geocoordinates, but if the lay of the land changes so that the markers move, then the boundary of your plot will also move. And this could mean that the size of your plot changes. Where I live, for instance, there are old boundary stones (which would in an earthquake naturally move along with the land on which they are laid) and newer marker bolts attached to bedrock that serve as reference points for geodesic measurement purposes. Also, there are height markers; for instance, when I started to build my house, the city would send a guy with equipment and start from one of these markers and then tell me if the foundations of the house are at right elevation. Should there be a major earthquake (not really a possibility here, ours is just about the most stable bedrock on Earth) then the changed positions (coordinates) would have to be recorded in land registry.
  - GregBuchholz 10y ago
    You may find learning more about the foundations of common-law to be interesting (since it seems you are from a Civil Law perspective). http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/TortWeb.html http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/TortWeb.html http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=586941 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=586941
int_19h 10y ago
A piece of land is typically defined in terms of geographic coordinates, though. Which do not move when the physical solids constituting your land do.
- kalleboo 10y ago
  But not always - my parents own land in Australia and one of their borders is defined as meeting a river (since the river is publicly-owned so anyone can get water from it). When the river changes, they gain or lose land.

by evgen 10y ago

ptaipale 10y ago

What happens to "newly created land" depends on local legislation. Where I live (Finland) this is a common question, because it happens all the time. We're still recovering from the depression of ground, caused by latest Ice Age. In Western Finland and Eastern Sweden, the land rises at about 1 cm per year, thus claiming area from the sea. 1 cm per year may not sound like a lot, but in shallow waters, it means that entire coastal towns become inland towns over the course of 100 years. Harbours have to be relocated, etc. Kilometres of new land is claimed from the sea over the course of centuries (and within a couple of millenia, the Gulf of Bothnia will dry up in places and create a land connection across, assuming water level rise caused by global climate change does not slow it down too much). Over here, the law works so that the newly created land at the shore becomes property of the owner of the water area (fishing) rights which is a "commonwealth" of local land owners, but the owner of the particular piece of land formerly adjacent to the sea or lake has the pre-emptive right to purchase the area and attach it to his/her property, at a "fair" price i.e. price comparable to the price of his/her own property. So in effect you have to remember to buy regularly (every few decades) the new land between your plot and the water. But that was Finland. How does this work regarding land created or lost in earthquakes in California? Let's assume that the fault line of tectonic plates happens to run through your plot, the plates push at each other and then in an earthquake run over each other, and the corner points of your plot move closer to each other. Is that just your loss? I.e. your plot became smaller? And likewise, if the borders of your plot move away from each other in an earthquake, your property expands, possibly impacting e.g. how large buildings can be constructed according to zoning regulations?

hueving 10y ago

>You have ownership of a piece of land, not a spot on a map. That's sort of silly. How do you define a 'piece of land'? What if I dig out my piece of land so it's a 100ft hole and then there is a sheering motion from the plates so half of my hole slides under someone else's land? Do I still own both halves? If so, do I no longer own the land at the bottom of the top half? If not, then it would not seem that I do not own a 'piece of land'.

ptaipale 10y ago
Land ownership is not really absolute; it is always subject to the definitions of the local law and, ultimately, the whims of the government. You don't have complete power over what you do to your land, because the government has the last word. On the other hand, without government, there is no land ownership because the definition and enforcement of land ownership is one of the most ultimate functions of any government, since the creation of first city-states (e.g. ancient Babylon). So if the government permits you to dig that hole in the first place, then what happens in an earthquake depends on local legislation. I don't really know how it works e.g. in the U.S. but I would assume that the boundary of your piece of land is defined in relation to physical markers that are recorded with their geocoordinates, but if the lay of the land changes so that the markers move, then the boundary of your plot will also move. And this could mean that the size of your plot changes. Where I live, for instance, there are old boundary stones (which would in an earthquake naturally move along with the land on which they are laid) and newer marker bolts attached to bedrock that serve as reference points for geodesic measurement purposes. Also, there are height markers; for instance, when I started to build my house, the city would send a guy with equipment and start from one of these markers and then tell me if the foundations of the house are at right elevation. Should there be a major earthquake (not really a possibility here, ours is just about the most stable bedrock on Earth) then the changed positions (coordinates) would have to be recorded in land registry.
- GregBuchholz 10y ago
  You may find learning more about the foundations of common-law to be interesting (since it seems you are from a Civil Law perspective). http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/TortWeb.html http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/TortWeb.html http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=586941 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=586941

int_19h 10y ago

A piece of land is typically defined in terms of geographic coordinates, though. Which do not move when the physical solids constituting your land do.

kalleboo 10y ago
But not always - my parents own land in Australia and one of their borders is defined as meeting a river (since the river is publicly-owned so anyone can get water from it). When the river changes, they gain or lose land.