6 ms·

You are a perfect example of the type of person we are talking about in the valley. Someone who wants to shut down debate by name calling. You don't actually

You are a perfect example of the type of person we are talking about in the valley. Someone who wants to shut down debate by name calling. You don't actually want to have a debate, you just want to call me a name and hope that ends the discussion.

drewrv 10y ago
It's a sincere question and I'd like an answer. I'm not trying to shut down debate I'm trying to hear your rationale.
- thedevil 10y ago
  I'm not really on either side (I strongly dislike like Trump but also I don't identify with the left at the moment), but I'm curious about the argument here. Why do you call Trump racist? That's a very strong accusation and I'm wondering what drives your thinking on that.
  - foldr 10y ago
    Are you seriously asking this? Is his long history of racist, xenophobic, misogynistic and (for want of a better term) religiously-bigoted comments not enough for you? Are you asking us to go to Google and turn up one of the hundreds of compilations of these comments that you could very easily find for yourself? Have you forgotten that he was a birther, and still is? Is there anything short of a video of Trump at a KKK rally that would persuade you? It seems you're determined to pretend that he's not a racist despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
    - ratbeard 10y ago
      It'd be handy if there was a page listing his comments you could point those who don't really follow what he's said to.
      - foldr 10y ago
        For people who (a) have not been following US politics at all up to now, (b) can't use Google, and (c) have taken a sudden interest in Donald Trump? I didn't think many people matching those criteria would be reading my comment, but ok: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trump+racist+comments http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trump+racist+comments Scroll down a bit and you'll see that even Paul Ryan has noticed that there's a problem here.
    - thedevil 10y ago
      "Are you seriously asking this?" Yes, I seriously believe in asking questions. Birthers are ridiculous, but you don't actually have to be racist to be a birther. It's driven primarily by partisan politics. Racism just gets mixed in sometimes. Here's what I see, over and over again: Trump does something that is not exactly racist but ambiguous enough to be interpreted as such. The media goes wild and declares him Hitler. But when you read the details, it's not nearly as bad as the media claim. So Trump gets free publicity and makes his critics look unreasonable. A clear example of this is the "star of David" incident. It's a sleazy tactic, but very effective. He uses this tactic not just with racism, but with all kinds of manufactured fake scandals. If you mix in enough of these incidents with your own confirmation bias, you can be very confident that Trump is racist and yet not be able to provide any solid evidence. I suspect this is what is happening here.
      - foldr 10y ago
        >Here's what I see, over and over again: Trump does something that is not exactly racist but ambiguous enough to be interpreted as such. By far the most plausible explanation for that behavior is that he is in fact a racist. However, you've made it clear that you won't believe Trump is a racist unless he goes on TV and says "I am a racist". By your standards of proof, hardly any racists exist in the entire USA. It's also inaccurate, by the way, to say that birthirism is driven by partisan politics. The mainstream of the Republican party never touched it, and it was not a component of McCain's campaign. It's driven by people who don't like the fact that the current President isn't an old white dude. After all, McCain himself really wasn't born in the USA, but no-one ever made much of that. My own preference for POTUS would be someone who, say, doesn't retweet bogus crime statistics by white supremacists, or promulgate factually inaccurate and highly incendiary stereotypes of Mexican immigrants as criminals and rapists. You may be ok with a POTUS who does those things. If you are, then there is probably not much point in us having a discussion. By the way, it might surprise you to know that you also have confirmation bias. (As confirmation bias is something that we all have, it tends to be a bit of a double-edged sword, rhetorically speaking.) I can see that you are not going to accept that Trump is a racist simply because you interpret all the evidence on the assumption that he is not. However, the alternative hypothesis you're outlining is that he's someone who cynically exploits racial tensions for political gain. That is hardly any better.
- MartinMcGirk 10y ago
  If that socialist candidate that you mentioned was big on, say, defense spending, and what you cared about most was defense spending, and the other candidate held the opposite view on defense spending, then it's not unreasonable that you might vote for the socialist candidate despite all the other character or political flaws that candidate might have. Someone big on defense spending might not believe in any part of socialism, but vote for the socialist anyway to get the result they want on the issue they care about. I imagine they'd get annoyed if people started assuming they were socialist based on WHO they voted for, rather than WHY they voted for that person.
- fsaneq2 10y ago
  Alright, I'll bite, even though I can't vote here, so I suppose my opinion doesn't really matter and I would not say I am a strong supporter of either candidate. There are many issues with your question ("Why would you support a racist candidate if you weren't also racist"). First, most of what I've heard about Trump being a "racist" is his comments about illegal Mexican immigrants (which is not a race... it's a group of by-definition criminals, since last time I checked illegally entering the US is, well, not legal). Similarly for the more rigorous checks of people coming from countries having known radical islamist ties -- not a race (and FWIW, many leaders across the world are proposing essentially the same thing -- but Trump gets singled out for some reason). People also seem to paint Trump as being very anti-immigration, though I fail to see how Hillary is any better. Neither appears to have any plan to do anything about highly skilled immigrants -- Hillary does have some stop gap measures for non-skill-related immigration (why does this take priority over immigrants who contribute more to the economy..?), but that's about it. So then, I'm not that convinced he's a racist in the first place, at least not much worse than everyone else. It's not like you're either an angel or a racist -- probably everyone has some unconscious prejudices, and I'm not going to base my rating of people based on how carefully they choose their words. Content not delivery. But more importantly, it is entirely possible to support a racist candidate even if you are not racist. Simple example: one candidate is racist but has mostly reasonable policies. The other candidate is "not racist" but proposes to nuke all of the world the day they're elected. It's always a tradeoff.
  - drewrv 10y ago
    Thanks!
  - foldr 10y ago
    Trump's racist credentials go quite a way beyond his comments on illegal Mexican immigrants. For example, there are his comments about judge who allegedly can't do his job because he is "Mexican" (though born in Indiana): http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/31/opinions/trump-attack-on-judge-opinion-obeidallah/ http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/31/opinions/trump-attack-on-j... http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/07/politics/paul-ryan-donald-trump-racist-comment/ http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/07/politics/paul-ryan-donald-... And there were the times he retweeted bogus crime figures from a white supremacist twitter account: http://fortune.com/donald-trump-white-supremacist-genocide/ http://fortune.com/donald-trump-white-supremacist-genocide/ And of course the time he called for all Muslims to be banned from entering the USA.

drewrv 10y ago

It's a sincere question and I'd like an answer. I'm not trying to shut down debate I'm trying to hear your rationale.

thedevil 10y ago
I'm not really on either side (I strongly dislike like Trump but also I don't identify with the left at the moment), but I'm curious about the argument here. Why do you call Trump racist? That's a very strong accusation and I'm wondering what drives your thinking on that.
- foldr 10y ago
  Are you seriously asking this? Is his long history of racist, xenophobic, misogynistic and (for want of a better term) religiously-bigoted comments not enough for you? Are you asking us to go to Google and turn up one of the hundreds of compilations of these comments that you could very easily find for yourself? Have you forgotten that he was a birther, and still is? Is there anything short of a video of Trump at a KKK rally that would persuade you? It seems you're determined to pretend that he's not a racist despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
  - ratbeard 10y ago
    It'd be handy if there was a page listing his comments you could point those who don't really follow what he's said to.
    - foldr 10y ago
      For people who (a) have not been following US politics at all up to now, (b) can't use Google, and (c) have taken a sudden interest in Donald Trump? I didn't think many people matching those criteria would be reading my comment, but ok: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trump+racist+comments http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trump+racist+comments Scroll down a bit and you'll see that even Paul Ryan has noticed that there's a problem here.
  - thedevil 10y ago
    "Are you seriously asking this?" Yes, I seriously believe in asking questions. Birthers are ridiculous, but you don't actually have to be racist to be a birther. It's driven primarily by partisan politics. Racism just gets mixed in sometimes. Here's what I see, over and over again: Trump does something that is not exactly racist but ambiguous enough to be interpreted as such. The media goes wild and declares him Hitler. But when you read the details, it's not nearly as bad as the media claim. So Trump gets free publicity and makes his critics look unreasonable. A clear example of this is the "star of David" incident. It's a sleazy tactic, but very effective. He uses this tactic not just with racism, but with all kinds of manufactured fake scandals. If you mix in enough of these incidents with your own confirmation bias, you can be very confident that Trump is racist and yet not be able to provide any solid evidence. I suspect this is what is happening here.
    - foldr 10y ago
      >Here's what I see, over and over again: Trump does something that is not exactly racist but ambiguous enough to be interpreted as such. By far the most plausible explanation for that behavior is that he is in fact a racist. However, you've made it clear that you won't believe Trump is a racist unless he goes on TV and says "I am a racist". By your standards of proof, hardly any racists exist in the entire USA. It's also inaccurate, by the way, to say that birthirism is driven by partisan politics. The mainstream of the Republican party never touched it, and it was not a component of McCain's campaign. It's driven by people who don't like the fact that the current President isn't an old white dude. After all, McCain himself really wasn't born in the USA, but no-one ever made much of that. My own preference for POTUS would be someone who, say, doesn't retweet bogus crime statistics by white supremacists, or promulgate factually inaccurate and highly incendiary stereotypes of Mexican immigrants as criminals and rapists. You may be ok with a POTUS who does those things. If you are, then there is probably not much point in us having a discussion. By the way, it might surprise you to know that you also have confirmation bias. (As confirmation bias is something that we all have, it tends to be a bit of a double-edged sword, rhetorically speaking.) I can see that you are not going to accept that Trump is a racist simply because you interpret all the evidence on the assumption that he is not. However, the alternative hypothesis you're outlining is that he's someone who cynically exploits racial tensions for political gain. That is hardly any better.
MartinMcGirk 10y ago
If that socialist candidate that you mentioned was big on, say, defense spending, and what you cared about most was defense spending, and the other candidate held the opposite view on defense spending, then it's not unreasonable that you might vote for the socialist candidate despite all the other character or political flaws that candidate might have. Someone big on defense spending might not believe in any part of socialism, but vote for the socialist anyway to get the result they want on the issue they care about. I imagine they'd get annoyed if people started assuming they were socialist based on WHO they voted for, rather than WHY they voted for that person.
fsaneq2 10y ago
Alright, I'll bite, even though I can't vote here, so I suppose my opinion doesn't really matter and I would not say I am a strong supporter of either candidate. There are many issues with your question ("Why would you support a racist candidate if you weren't also racist"). First, most of what I've heard about Trump being a "racist" is his comments about illegal Mexican immigrants (which is not a race... it's a group of by-definition criminals, since last time I checked illegally entering the US is, well, not legal). Similarly for the more rigorous checks of people coming from countries having known radical islamist ties -- not a race (and FWIW, many leaders across the world are proposing essentially the same thing -- but Trump gets singled out for some reason). People also seem to paint Trump as being very anti-immigration, though I fail to see how Hillary is any better. Neither appears to have any plan to do anything about highly skilled immigrants -- Hillary does have some stop gap measures for non-skill-related immigration (why does this take priority over immigrants who contribute more to the economy..?), but that's about it. So then, I'm not that convinced he's a racist in the first place, at least not much worse than everyone else. It's not like you're either an angel or a racist -- probably everyone has some unconscious prejudices, and I'm not going to base my rating of people based on how carefully they choose their words. Content not delivery. But more importantly, it is entirely possible to support a racist candidate even if you are not racist. Simple example: one candidate is racist but has mostly reasonable policies. The other candidate is "not racist" but proposes to nuke all of the world the day they're elected. It's always a tradeoff.
- drewrv 10y ago
  Thanks!
- foldr 10y ago
  Trump's racist credentials go quite a way beyond his comments on illegal Mexican immigrants. For example, there are his comments about judge who allegedly can't do his job because he is "Mexican" (though born in Indiana): http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/31/opinions/trump-attack-on-judge-opinion-obeidallah/ http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/31/opinions/trump-attack-on-j... http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/07/politics/paul-ryan-donald-trump-racist-comment/ http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/07/politics/paul-ryan-donald-... And there were the times he retweeted bogus crime figures from a white supremacist twitter account: http://fortune.com/donald-trump-white-supremacist-genocide/ http://fortune.com/donald-trump-white-supremacist-genocide/ And of course the time he called for all Muslims to be banned from entering the USA.