6 ms·

The Rust leadership tolerates harassment and threats as long as its against the right wing. One of Rust's top people wants to violently purge the tech community

by im4w1l 10y ago

The Rust leadership tolerates harassment and threats as long as its against the right wing. One of Rust's top people wants to violently purge the tech community. https://archive.is/BtDaA https://archive.is/BtDaA

GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
Nazi programmers can follow the Nazi punks and etc.
tamana 10y ago
Twitter is not part of Rust code of conduct, the code of conduct does not apply to off-project politcal conversations. https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html
- makomk 10y ago
  There's nothing in there that excludes off-project conversations, and I cannot imagine such a restriction surviving the first outrage about a project member's off-site views from the left based on previous incidents.
gaius 10y ago
If you see a threat of violence on Twitter, report it.
rmc 10y ago
"right wing" or "far right wing". Remember we're talking about literal neo-nazis here, not just Conservatives.
- jules 10y ago
  That's not how it goes in practice. The fact that the people in that twitter thread endorse antifa shows that they are either ignorant of what antifa actually is (as opposed to what it claims to be), or they endorse an organisation that is more fascist than the fascists it purports to fight.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
    “The anti-fascists are the real fascists!” is a tired argument and it has been for more than 70 years, ever since that was said in actual Nazi Germany and the fascists proceeded to win.
    - jules 10y ago
      When the so called anti-fascists use violence against peaceful protesters and against the police who try to stop them, then yes.
      - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
        """If fascism could be defeated in debate, I assure you that it would never have happened, neither in Germany, nor in Italy, nor anywhere else. Those who recognised its threat at the time and tried to stop it were, I assume, also called “a mob”. Regrettably too many “fair-minded” people didn’t either try, or want to stop it, and, as I witnessed myself during the war, accommodated themselves when it took over … People who witnessed fascism at its height are dying out, but the ideology is still here, and its apologists are working hard at a comeback. Past experience should teach us that fascism must be stopped before it takes hold again of too many minds, and becomes useful once again to some powerful interests""" <--- Franz Frison, Holocaust survivor
        GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
        That's misleading. In neither Italy nor Germany did the fascists seize power without using violence. In Germany, the SA was used by the Nazis to suppress their opponents in elections and intimidate the powers that be. Even then, they only won like 40% of the vote and had to manufacture a crisis to seize full control. Similar in Italy.
        CM30 10y ago
        So what's the solution? Because attacking people for beliefs you don't like doesn't exactly make things better. A lot of the people that seem to be trying to attack those they see as facist would be just as bad in the power as those they oppose. Except you know, with different targets.
- reitzensteinm 10y ago
  To clarify the context, are you saying that gamergate members are literal neo-nazis?
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
    Do white nationalists count (example: Vox Day)
  - legodt 10y ago
    I would definitely say that there is a strong overlap between the two groups
    - toss1941 10y ago
      And what do you base this claim on? What the people in the Anti-GG media have been telling everyone?
      - legodt 10y ago
        High incidents of hate speech, abusive behavior online, high overlap with swatting, death threats, and chasing women off the internet. The movement acts as a hate group and is made up of typical "red pilled" men's rights type people. And, much like most extreme right groups, all of these ills are dismissed as illusions by a nebulous liberal media that is against their hateful cause.
        toss1941 10y ago
        GamerGate exposed clear ethical violations in the gaming media. Do you dispute that too? That same media has yet to clean up it's mess and famously doubled down by ignoring the legitimate claims or blowing them off while conveniently pretending that every troll/kid with a keyboard are really the spokespeople of the movement.
        legodt 10y ago
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  No, we're not. We're talking about everything from center left libertarians to plain old conservatives. It is just that far left authoritarians call them nazis because that is the easiest way to dismiss people they disagree with.
- b1460151 10y ago
  The problem with that kind of reasoning is now how do you decide if someone is right wing? How far do they have to be for it to be okay? It's similar to the problem welfare faces compared to universal basic income. If you just say harassment is bad in general (or everyone should get the same icnome regardless of their situation) we wouldn't even have this discussion.
- makomk 10y ago
  No, we're talking about applying the violence historically used against literal fascist marches against people online he's declared to be his enemies, because "the only things fascists respond to is violence". We're talking about an online culture where it doesn't matter if the targets are actually neo-Nazis or conservatives or anything else, because disputing any accusation against them no matter how trivially falsifiable marks you as supporting them. Our political discourse is in a dangerous place and I see no way out anymore.
  - steveklabnik 10y ago
    I wasn't planning on jumping in on this thread, but I will leave one (and only one) comment here, just to make this crystal clear: I have no advocated that anyone commit violence against "people online [I've] declared to be [my enemies]." In fact, in the thread you're linking to, right above the archived tweet, I say that I don't know what an anti-fascist movement in tech looks like. And today, years later, I still do not. But if you were ask me "hey Steve let's start a street fight with GamerGate, what do you think?" my first comment would be "what?" and my second comment would be "that sounds like a really dumb idea, don't do that."
    - ptomato 10y ago
      Not advocating violence, but "100% okay with that"? Don't be disingenuous.
      - steveklabnik 10y ago
        Okay, fine, one more comment. Last one for real this time, I think this clarifies something I was missing above. You'll note that the subject at hand changed during this conversation: the parent I replied to suggested that I was suggesting something specific regarding the right wing in technology, but that response is about abstract antifa actions in France. It's also why I responded the way that I did: the equivalence between the two (European antifa and European fascist organizations) is laughable. But it's just Twitter; I'm not going to get into a debate about the details, I'm just going to say "okay" and move on. But I did not and do not think, as I said above, that someone should go find tech fascists and cause them bodily harm. It's not something I did suggest or would support today.
- Ygg2 10y ago
  Didn't some states initially started suppressing them using force and censorship, but they still popped up like mushrooms after a rain?

by im4w1l 10y ago

GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago

Nazi programmers can follow the Nazi punks and etc.

tamana 10y ago

Twitter is not part of Rust code of conduct, the code of conduct does not apply to off-project politcal conversations. https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html

makomk 10y ago
There's nothing in there that excludes off-project conversations, and I cannot imagine such a restriction surviving the first outrage about a project member's off-site views from the left based on previous incidents.

gaius 10y ago

If you see a threat of violence on Twitter, report it.

rmc 10y ago

"right wing" or "far right wing". Remember we're talking about literal neo-nazis here, not just Conservatives.

jules 10y ago
That's not how it goes in practice. The fact that the people in that twitter thread endorse antifa shows that they are either ignorant of what antifa actually is (as opposed to what it claims to be), or they endorse an organisation that is more fascist than the fascists it purports to fight.
- TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
  “The anti-fascists are the real fascists!” is a tired argument and it has been for more than 70 years, ever since that was said in actual Nazi Germany and the fascists proceeded to win.
  - jules 10y ago
    When the so called anti-fascists use violence against peaceful protesters and against the police who try to stop them, then yes.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
      """If fascism could be defeated in debate, I assure you that it would never have happened, neither in Germany, nor in Italy, nor anywhere else. Those who recognised its threat at the time and tried to stop it were, I assume, also called “a mob”. Regrettably too many “fair-minded” people didn’t either try, or want to stop it, and, as I witnessed myself during the war, accommodated themselves when it took over … People who witnessed fascism at its height are dying out, but the ideology is still here, and its apologists are working hard at a comeback. Past experience should teach us that fascism must be stopped before it takes hold again of too many minds, and becomes useful once again to some powerful interests""" <--- Franz Frison, Holocaust survivor
      - GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
        That's misleading. In neither Italy nor Germany did the fascists seize power without using violence. In Germany, the SA was used by the Nazis to suppress their opponents in elections and intimidate the powers that be. Even then, they only won like 40% of the vote and had to manufacture a crisis to seize full control. Similar in Italy.
      - CM30 10y ago
        So what's the solution? Because attacking people for beliefs you don't like doesn't exactly make things better. A lot of the people that seem to be trying to attack those they see as facist would be just as bad in the power as those they oppose. Except you know, with different targets.
reitzensteinm 10y ago
To clarify the context, are you saying that gamergate members are literal neo-nazis?
- GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
  Do white nationalists count (example: Vox Day)
- legodt 10y ago
  I would definitely say that there is a strong overlap between the two groups
  - toss1941 10y ago
    And what do you base this claim on? What the people in the Anti-GG media have been telling everyone?
    - legodt 10y ago
      High incidents of hate speech, abusive behavior online, high overlap with swatting, death threats, and chasing women off the internet. The movement acts as a hate group and is made up of typical "red pilled" men's rights type people. And, much like most extreme right groups, all of these ills are dismissed as illusions by a nebulous liberal media that is against their hateful cause.
      - toss1941 10y ago
        GamerGate exposed clear ethical violations in the gaming media. Do you dispute that too? That same media has yet to clean up it's mess and famously doubled down by ignoring the legitimate claims or blowing them off while conveniently pretending that every troll/kid with a keyboard are really the spokespeople of the movement.
        legodt 10y ago
MustardTiger 10y ago
No, we're not. We're talking about everything from center left libertarians to plain old conservatives. It is just that far left authoritarians call them nazis because that is the easiest way to dismiss people they disagree with.
b1460151 10y ago
The problem with that kind of reasoning is now how do you decide if someone is right wing? How far do they have to be for it to be okay? It's similar to the problem welfare faces compared to universal basic income. If you just say harassment is bad in general (or everyone should get the same icnome regardless of their situation) we wouldn't even have this discussion.
makomk 10y ago
No, we're talking about applying the violence historically used against literal fascist marches against people online he's declared to be his enemies, because "the only things fascists respond to is violence". We're talking about an online culture where it doesn't matter if the targets are actually neo-Nazis or conservatives or anything else, because disputing any accusation against them no matter how trivially falsifiable marks you as supporting them. Our political discourse is in a dangerous place and I see no way out anymore.
- steveklabnik 10y ago
  I wasn't planning on jumping in on this thread, but I will leave one (and only one) comment here, just to make this crystal clear: I have no advocated that anyone commit violence against "people online [I've] declared to be [my enemies]." In fact, in the thread you're linking to, right above the archived tweet, I say that I don't know what an anti-fascist movement in tech looks like. And today, years later, I still do not. But if you were ask me "hey Steve let's start a street fight with GamerGate, what do you think?" my first comment would be "what?" and my second comment would be "that sounds like a really dumb idea, don't do that."
  - ptomato 10y ago
    Not advocating violence, but "100% okay with that"? Don't be disingenuous.
    - steveklabnik 10y ago
      Okay, fine, one more comment. Last one for real this time, I think this clarifies something I was missing above. You'll note that the subject at hand changed during this conversation: the parent I replied to suggested that I was suggesting something specific regarding the right wing in technology, but that response is about abstract antifa actions in France. It's also why I responded the way that I did: the equivalence between the two (European antifa and European fascist organizations) is laughable. But it's just Twitter; I'm not going to get into a debate about the details, I'm just going to say "okay" and move on. But I did not and do not think, as I said above, that someone should go find tech fascists and cause them bodily harm. It's not something I did suggest or would support today.
Ygg2 10y ago
Didn't some states initially started suppressing them using force and censorship, but they still popped up like mushrooms after a rain?