4 ms·

Anyone who still doubts that we're rapidly becoming a third world country needs to read this article and multiply it by a few million. It's not "the recession"

Anyone who still doubts that we're rapidly becoming a third world country needs to read this article and multiply it by a few million. It's not "the recession". This could just have easily been written in 2006. The US is in rapid decline.

houseabsolute 17y ago
I see, a thought exercise is proof that we are becoming a third world nation. I wonder how long it will take under this standard to prove that the speed of light can be exceeded.
- rguzman 17y ago
  Heh. Ironic that thought experiments first led to the idea that the speed of light is a constant and can't be exceeded. Thought experiments are not proof, just useful and potentially enlightening.
  - houseabsolute 17y ago
    Thought experiments can be used to prove almost anything. There are thought experiments that disprove the speed limit of light, and ones that prove it. My point is that merely claiming that one should imagine this situation copied a million times is no evidence at all. It's not even good rhetoric. It should be lent no more credence than would be lent to the thousands of people each year who post on forums their disproof of special relativity.
    - pw0ncakes 17y ago
      "A million times" because there are millions of people whose stories are like this right now, thanks to our failed society.
      - houseabsolute 17y ago
        I see no evidence for that belief. And even if there were, I don't think that would mean our society has failed.
        pw0ncakes 17y ago
        If you think it's not social failure for highly literate, qualified people to be doing menial work, then you, sir, are a mean-spirited and unpleasant person.
        houseabsolute 17y ago
        Again, I don't really see the connection between my opinion on this subject and my mean-spiritedness or unpleasantness. It sounds to me like you have an emotional stake in this situation and you are letting it cloud your judgment. She's qualified, but not for anything that anyone needs doing. Do you think a highly qualified one-foot-balancer deserves employment in that pursuit and that it's a shame if he has to wash dishes because no one will pay him $50k a year to balance on one foot all day? I don't see that as a tragedy, and it's an analogue to this situation. Admittedly it's not perfect because there are _no_ jobs in one-foot-balancing and merely few in editing, but it's the same type of thing. Since you insulted me, I'll allow myself a stylistic criticism. The "you, sir" thing is lame. Drop it.
        yequalsx 17y ago
        What you say holds in a micro sense but not in a macro sense. No individual has a right to a certain type of employment. It is no great tragedy if an individual does not find work doing what they love doing. However, if too many people are unable to find work doing what they like doing (or are content doing) then this is bad for society. Before the present fiscal crisis a friend of mine justified the validity of liar loans on the basis that they are an agreement between two consenting parties. Of course an individual has the right to make a bad decision and of course 20 million bad decisions can affect the entire nation. Would you make the same argument that you made if the underemployment rate for Ph.D.s in electrical engineering was 25%? There is a point where this becomes a big deal. I'm not saying we are at this point but the existence of such a point should not be denied. It would be a very bad thing for this country if, in general, advanced degrees required too high an opportunity cost.
hvs 17y ago
Did you miss the part where she mentions that she has a "Masters in Journalism"? That and $5 will get you a latte at Starbucks.
- pw0ncakes 17y ago
  This is because unscrupulous universities mint more degrees than there are jobs for. That should be stopped. The talented people get in, and those who don't have the talent don't. Right now, because everyone can get in to some kind of grad school, it dilutes the value of such degrees to almost zero.
  - dantheman 17y ago
    People should be free to do whatever they want. If a lot of people want to go to grad school that's fine, it means we have people with more training. If that training can help them earn more, then more power to them if not well that's life.
    - pw0ncakes 17y ago
      People should be free to do whatever they want. This contradicts your argument that society hasn't failed this woman. I'm pretty sure that cleaning up rental apartments is not what she wanted to do with her life.
      - dgordon 17y ago
        People should be free to do whatever they want, but not to make other people finance their wants. I see no contradiction.
        pw0ncakes 17y ago
        In other words, they can't do what they want with their lives; they have only token freedom. We need to restructure the economy and society so that culture rules, so that the resources are made available to pay for culture and the arts-- so we can stop being an artistic and philosophical backwater-- and the uncultured profit-ideologists who've currently infected this country with their adolescent ideology and bankrupt values are utterly disempowered, instead of running the show as they are now.
kyteland 17y ago
The United States will always be a first world country because that is the definition of first world. First/second/third world status never changes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_second_third_worlds_map.svg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_second_third_worlds_...
- aik 17y ago
  With that definition it makes the term first/second/third world nearly meaningless. "A is A because it is". I prefer the definition that implies that "A is A because [INSERT REASONS]" and "A is A but can become B if..."
  - etal 17y ago
    The definitions are from the Cold War: industrialized capitalist nations in the West, communist nations in the East, and none of the above, where the proxy wars were fought. So the definition is fixed by history, and also somewhat obsolete. Note the amusing parallel between assuming the US is turning into a "third world" country, since the gaps in industrialization worldwide are closing, and the article's original assumption that an educated middle-class girl would never have to do the same work as a Spanish-speaking working-class woman.
    - pyre 17y ago
      > original assumption that an educated middle-class girl would never have to do the same work as a Spanish-speaking working-class woman. Maybe you read a different article, but she was doing the same job as a Spanish-speaking working-class woman. The assumption is that it was just a stepping-stone to bigger and better things, while the 'Spanish-speaking working-class woman' works the job to make ends meet. She may have had some assumptions that as a middle-class girl she wouldn't end up working a waitress job to make ends meet, but there is a large portion of the population that gets sold the promise of "go to school, get educated, get a better job." This isn't just about 4-year degrees from a major university. It's the same with trade-schools, community colleges, 2-year degree programs, online universities, etc. The idea that a 'better job' will necessarily just follow from 'getting an education' is sold all over the place.
hyperbovine 17y ago
The US is in rapid decline. I think the US is diverging into two camps: a well-educated, well-off elite, and a permanent underclass. This story is about somebody who always thought of herself as the former, and then found out she was the latter.
- bilbo0s 17y ago
  I would agree. Only I would add well-connected to the list of characteristics of the elite class. My Significant Other just got done creating a plan for the lay-offs of about 5000 highly educated Health Care workers. Outplacement services, severance packages ONLY where legally obligated, others will need approval case by case, flights back to home countries, movers, obtaining extra security etc etc etc. She had to keep a lid on it until recently. AND . . . this is the creamy frosting on the cake . . . they had her include herself. I think the underclass of the future will probably be just as well educated as the elite. But they probably won't know the right people. It will be very much a sort of 'work from layoff to layoff' kind of existence.
  - pw0ncakes 17y ago
    I think the underclass of the future will probably be just as well educated as the elite. But they probably won't know the right people. It will be very much a sort of 'work from layoff to layoff' kind of existence. The well-educated paupers will launch a much-needed revolt. Happily, it can be done none-violently with cyberattacks and property damage-- the people involved will be smart enough-- so we can have French Revolution-style pwnage of the upper crust and Glorious Revolution bloodlessness together.
- mikecane 17y ago
  I disagree with that view. That is not what America set out to be nor will any American settle for that. Mobility of all sorts has been inculcated into us for decades (one could argue since the foundation of the nation itself). This is different than many countries, where "duty" is upheld over personal fulfillment and improvement. It's our belief in possibilities that drives America and makes it unique among nations. And I don't say this in a cheerleading manner. This is why people come here. It's not just the money. It's the freedom to do things.

houseabsolute 17y ago

I see, a thought exercise is proof that we are becoming a third world nation. I wonder how long it will take under this standard to prove that the speed of light can be exceeded.

rguzman 17y ago
Heh. Ironic that thought experiments first led to the idea that the speed of light is a constant and can't be exceeded. Thought experiments are not proof, just useful and potentially enlightening.
- houseabsolute 17y ago
  Thought experiments can be used to prove almost anything. There are thought experiments that disprove the speed limit of light, and ones that prove it. My point is that merely claiming that one should imagine this situation copied a million times is no evidence at all. It's not even good rhetoric. It should be lent no more credence than would be lent to the thousands of people each year who post on forums their disproof of special relativity.
  - pw0ncakes 17y ago
    "A million times" because there are millions of people whose stories are like this right now, thanks to our failed society.
    - houseabsolute 17y ago
      I see no evidence for that belief. And even if there were, I don't think that would mean our society has failed.
      - pw0ncakes 17y ago
        If you think it's not social failure for highly literate, qualified people to be doing menial work, then you, sir, are a mean-spirited and unpleasant person.
        houseabsolute 17y ago
        Again, I don't really see the connection between my opinion on this subject and my mean-spiritedness or unpleasantness. It sounds to me like you have an emotional stake in this situation and you are letting it cloud your judgment. She's qualified, but not for anything that anyone needs doing. Do you think a highly qualified one-foot-balancer deserves employment in that pursuit and that it's a shame if he has to wash dishes because no one will pay him $50k a year to balance on one foot all day? I don't see that as a tragedy, and it's an analogue to this situation. Admittedly it's not perfect because there are _no_ jobs in one-foot-balancing and merely few in editing, but it's the same type of thing. Since you insulted me, I'll allow myself a stylistic criticism. The "you, sir" thing is lame. Drop it.
        yequalsx 17y ago
        What you say holds in a micro sense but not in a macro sense. No individual has a right to a certain type of employment. It is no great tragedy if an individual does not find work doing what they love doing. However, if too many people are unable to find work doing what they like doing (or are content doing) then this is bad for society. Before the present fiscal crisis a friend of mine justified the validity of liar loans on the basis that they are an agreement between two consenting parties. Of course an individual has the right to make a bad decision and of course 20 million bad decisions can affect the entire nation. Would you make the same argument that you made if the underemployment rate for Ph.D.s in electrical engineering was 25%? There is a point where this becomes a big deal. I'm not saying we are at this point but the existence of such a point should not be denied. It would be a very bad thing for this country if, in general, advanced degrees required too high an opportunity cost.

hvs 17y ago

Did you miss the part where she mentions that she has a "Masters in Journalism"? That and $5 will get you a latte at Starbucks.

pw0ncakes 17y ago
This is because unscrupulous universities mint more degrees than there are jobs for. That should be stopped. The talented people get in, and those who don't have the talent don't. Right now, because everyone can get in to some kind of grad school, it dilutes the value of such degrees to almost zero.
- dantheman 17y ago
  People should be free to do whatever they want. If a lot of people want to go to grad school that's fine, it means we have people with more training. If that training can help them earn more, then more power to them if not well that's life.
  - pw0ncakes 17y ago
    People should be free to do whatever they want. This contradicts your argument that society hasn't failed this woman. I'm pretty sure that cleaning up rental apartments is not what she wanted to do with her life.
    - dgordon 17y ago
      People should be free to do whatever they want, but not to make other people finance their wants. I see no contradiction.
      - pw0ncakes 17y ago
        In other words, they can't do what they want with their lives; they have only token freedom. We need to restructure the economy and society so that culture rules, so that the resources are made available to pay for culture and the arts-- so we can stop being an artistic and philosophical backwater-- and the uncultured profit-ideologists who've currently infected this country with their adolescent ideology and bankrupt values are utterly disempowered, instead of running the show as they are now.

kyteland 17y ago

The United States will always be a first world country because that is the definition of first world. First/second/third world status never changes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_second_third_worlds_map.svg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_second_third_worlds_...

aik 17y ago
With that definition it makes the term first/second/third world nearly meaningless. "A is A because it is". I prefer the definition that implies that "A is A because [INSERT REASONS]" and "A is A but can become B if..."
- etal 17y ago
  The definitions are from the Cold War: industrialized capitalist nations in the West, communist nations in the East, and none of the above, where the proxy wars were fought. So the definition is fixed by history, and also somewhat obsolete. Note the amusing parallel between assuming the US is turning into a "third world" country, since the gaps in industrialization worldwide are closing, and the article's original assumption that an educated middle-class girl would never have to do the same work as a Spanish-speaking working-class woman.
  - pyre 17y ago
    > original assumption that an educated middle-class girl would never have to do the same work as a Spanish-speaking working-class woman. Maybe you read a different article, but she was doing the same job as a Spanish-speaking working-class woman. The assumption is that it was just a stepping-stone to bigger and better things, while the 'Spanish-speaking working-class woman' works the job to make ends meet. She may have had some assumptions that as a middle-class girl she wouldn't end up working a waitress job to make ends meet, but there is a large portion of the population that gets sold the promise of "go to school, get educated, get a better job." This isn't just about 4-year degrees from a major university. It's the same with trade-schools, community colleges, 2-year degree programs, online universities, etc. The idea that a 'better job' will necessarily just follow from 'getting an education' is sold all over the place.

hyperbovine 17y ago

The US is in rapid decline. I think the US is diverging into two camps: a well-educated, well-off elite, and a permanent underclass. This story is about somebody who always thought of herself as the former, and then found out she was the latter.

bilbo0s 17y ago
I would agree. Only I would add well-connected to the list of characteristics of the elite class. My Significant Other just got done creating a plan for the lay-offs of about 5000 highly educated Health Care workers. Outplacement services, severance packages ONLY where legally obligated, others will need approval case by case, flights back to home countries, movers, obtaining extra security etc etc etc. She had to keep a lid on it until recently. AND . . . this is the creamy frosting on the cake . . . they had her include herself. I think the underclass of the future will probably be just as well educated as the elite. But they probably won't know the right people. It will be very much a sort of 'work from layoff to layoff' kind of existence.
- pw0ncakes 17y ago
  I think the underclass of the future will probably be just as well educated as the elite. But they probably won't know the right people. It will be very much a sort of 'work from layoff to layoff' kind of existence. The well-educated paupers will launch a much-needed revolt. Happily, it can be done none-violently with cyberattacks and property damage-- the people involved will be smart enough-- so we can have French Revolution-style pwnage of the upper crust and Glorious Revolution bloodlessness together.
mikecane 17y ago
I disagree with that view. That is not what America set out to be nor will any American settle for that. Mobility of all sorts has been inculcated into us for decades (one could argue since the foundation of the nation itself). This is different than many countries, where "duty" is upheld over personal fulfillment and improvement. It's our belief in possibilities that drives America and makes it unique among nations. And I don't say this in a cheerleading manner. This is why people come here. It's not just the money. It's the freedom to do things.